Reverse Engineering MacOS High Sierra Supplemental Update • Hacker News Board

Re: Reverse Engineering MacOS High Sierra Supplemental Update

#101

Post by IncRnd » Mon, Oct 09, 2017, 2:22 PM UTC

devdoomari wrote: post #51

IncRnd wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Provable code would solve the root cause, yes. :) However, even with provable code, the proof actually has to be both correct and performed. There are too many competing factors that won't allow idris, for example, to actually work. The result is that, as an industry, the Internet and the world's business are held together by twine, twist ties, and spaghetti code. Even this very webpage is just enough to work for mos…

so... I guess strong-AI-based coding is the only 100% sure way to go (but... I'd be jobless if that were to happen :(

There are some insanely good architects and programmers. Even so, people write mistaken code, design with faulty assumptions, misinterpret business logic, use libraries and crypto incorrectly, etc. On top of all that, there is a small segment of coders who insert malicious code. They used to write for mayhem but now more for profit.

The terms are somewhat contentious, but AIs are more prone to use heuristics than traditional algorithms, which would add another layer of complexity.

So, we can't be certain that such an AI itself wouldn't create bugs. If anything, it would be easier to show that bugs would get created.

This is simply the state of software. We all deal with it in the ways we can, trying our best to minimize issues and add value.

Re: Reverse Engineering MacOS High Sierra Supplemental Update

#102

Post by mitchty » Mon, Oct 09, 2017, 2:23 PM UTC

rusk wrote: post #97

veidr wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be looking at the past through rose-colored glasses. Apple's always had horrible show-stopping bugs, in every single OS X / macOS release[1], from when simple operations like updating iTunes or enabling the OS's Guest Mode might delete your home directories, to this latest failure. I suspect one reason is that they like one-person teams so much. I like one-person projects too! But there is always pa…

except maybe Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard. What a wonderful high-point in Desktop OSes that was. Seriously considering rolling back one or two of my old computers, even just to have a living breathing reference-point.

It too had issues, this is the rose colored windows 7/xp/2000 glasses release for mac fans.

Re: Reverse Engineering MacOS High Sierra Supplemental Update

#103

Post by cjsuk » Mon, Oct 09, 2017, 2:26 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #78

cjsuk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let us not forget the butt clench of doom from Microsoft either. Every minor updates hoses people these days as well.

Half the problem with MS now is not the bugs, it's working as designed, it's the design that's the problem.

Fair point even if it is rather sad!

Re: Reverse Engineering MacOS High Sierra Supplemental Update

#104

Post by jackhack » Mon, Oct 09, 2017, 2:27 PM UTC

madeofpalk wrote: post #95

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. "Never buy the first version of any new Apple product", whether hardware or OS, has been well-known for at least 10 years: https://www.engadget.com/2006/06/03/why-first-generation-app... (That said, I've found my first-gen Apple Watch to be a great product. First-gen iPad is a paperweight though...)

Never buy the first version of any new product

Mostly, that's true. Or at least understand you're on the edge. Cutting or bleeding, it's hard to say ahead of time but usually pretty obvious after a week of real-world use.

I respect Apple, they take chances. Sometimes it pays off. Off the top of my head:

Products where 1st generation was amazing: Apple ][

  iPod

  Lisa

  iPhone

Products where 1st gen was almost unusable, but v2+ was amazing:

  Macintosh (Amazing, but frequent disk swapping was an issue.)

  Messagepad (first gen soured the press and the public due to connectivity issues. Modem vs cellular.)

DOA: Apple 3 (anyone else remember the service bulletin that asked users to slam it on the desk to reseat the chips?)

  Pippin

Re: Reverse Engineering MacOS High Sierra Supplemental Update

#105

Post by akulbe » Mon, Oct 09, 2017, 2:49 PM UTC

veidr wrote: post #71

danra wrote: post #16

It's pretty insane this sort of bug either passed or didn't even go through code review and testing at Apple, a company which has approximately infinite resources and whose marketing pitch is making high-quality products. I loved Apple products and still do, but as both a user of and a developer for their systems, I feel the quality has been steadily going downhill the last few years.

I think you might be looking at the past through rose-colored glasses. Apple's always had horrible show-stopping bugs, in every single OS X / macOS release[1], from when simple operations like updating iTunes or enabling the OS's Guest Mode might delete your home directories, to this latest failure. I suspect one reason is that they like one-person teams so much. I like one-person projects too! But there is always pa…

Are Windows or Linux QA any better, by comparison?

I've been getting very disillusioned with macOS, but the workflow pain on the other platforms has been enough to keep me coming back to macOS, thus far.

Working on a Linux machine would be the closest thing to perfection (in terms of workflow), but there are so many workarounds needed, and the selection of apps just isn't there.

Operating systems suck. I'm obviously annoyed, as I've just run into lots of issues lately.

Re: Reverse Engineering MacOS High Sierra Supplemental Update

#106

Post by mi100hael » Mon, Oct 09, 2017, 2:54 PM UTC

veidr wrote: post #71

danra wrote: post #16

It's pretty insane this sort of bug either passed or didn't even go through code review and testing at Apple, a company which has approximately infinite resources and whose marketing pitch is making high-quality products. I loved Apple products and still do, but as both a user of and a developer for their systems, I feel the quality has been steadily going downhill the last few years.

I think you might be looking at the past through rose-colored glasses. Apple's always had horrible show-stopping bugs, in every single OS X / macOS release[1], from when simple operations like updating iTunes or enabling the OS's Guest Mode might delete your home directories, to this latest failure. I suspect one reason is that they like one-person teams so much. I like one-person projects too! But there is always pa…

10.6.8 was the pinnacle of Mac's OS.

Re: Reverse Engineering MacOS High Sierra Supplemental Update

#107

Post by rusk » Mon, Oct 09, 2017, 3:13 PM UTC

mitchty wrote: post #102

rusk wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

except maybe Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard. What a wonderful high-point in Desktop OSes that was. Seriously considering rolling back one or two of my old computers, even just to have a living breathing reference-point.

It too had issues, this is the rose colored windows 7/xp/2000 glasses release for mac fans.

All software has issues. Snow Leopard, and Mountain Lion were high points absolutely.

Re: Reverse Engineering MacOS High Sierra Supplemental Update

#108

Post by ClassyJacket » Mon, Oct 09, 2017, 3:20 PM UTC

veidr wrote: post #71

danra wrote: post #16

It's pretty insane this sort of bug either passed or didn't even go through code review and testing at Apple, a company which has approximately infinite resources and whose marketing pitch is making high-quality products. I loved Apple products and still do, but as both a user of and a developer for their systems, I feel the quality has been steadily going downhill the last few years.

I think you might be looking at the past through rose-colored glasses. Apple's always had horrible show-stopping bugs, in every single OS X / macOS release[1], from when simple operations like updating iTunes or enabling the OS's Guest Mode might delete your home directories, to this latest failure. I suspect one reason is that they like one-person teams so much. I like one-person projects too! But there is always pa…

Snow Leopard was a glorious dream of stability and reliability. I miss it.

Re: Reverse Engineering MacOS High Sierra Supplemental Update

#109

Post by equalunique » Mon, Oct 09, 2017, 3:38 PM UTC

veidr wrote: post #71

danra wrote: post #16

It's pretty insane this sort of bug either passed or didn't even go through code review and testing at Apple, a company which has approximately infinite resources and whose marketing pitch is making high-quality products. I loved Apple products and still do, but as both a user of and a developer for their systems, I feel the quality has been steadily going downhill the last few years.

I think you might be looking at the past through rose-colored glasses. Apple's always had horrible show-stopping bugs, in every single OS X / macOS release[1], from when simple operations like updating iTunes or enabling the OS's Guest Mode might delete your home directories, to this latest failure. I suspect one reason is that they like one-person teams so much. I like one-person projects too! But there is always pa…

>except maybe Mac OS X 10.6? Does anybody remember any critical bugs in that one? I think that might be the unicorn.

That was my first version of OS X & it was a fantastic experience. Played around with XCode, Homebrew, and all sorts of fun technical stuff. Also had it booting on a laptop with a RAID1 setup. Never had an issue with it.

Before that was OS 9. I only ever used it to play Bugdom & can't remember any bugs. Was only 10 when I was introduced to it.

Before that was OS 8. I hardly remember what I ever accomplished with it. Was only about 6 when it was released.

Re: Reverse Engineering MacOS High Sierra Supplemental Update

#110

Post by rusk » Mon, Oct 09, 2017, 3:41 PM UTC

rusk wrote: post #97

veidr wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be looking at the past through rose-colored glasses. Apple's always had horrible show-stopping bugs, in every single OS X / macOS release[1], from when simple operations like updating iTunes or enabling the OS's Guest Mode might delete your home directories, to this latest failure. I suspect one reason is that they like one-person teams so much. I like one-person projects too! But there is always pa…

except maybe Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard. What a wonderful high-point in Desktop OSes that was. Seriously considering rolling back one or two of my old computers, even just to have a living breathing reference-point.

> Seriously considering rolling back

I've just gone and ordered it [0], along with an external optical drive, cause internal drive my 2008 macbook is kaput.

[0] https://www.apple.com/ie/shop/product/MC573Z/A/mac-os-x-106-...