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Tensorflow sucks

nicodjimenez.github.io

101–110 of 133 posts

Re: Tensorflow sucks

#101
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience (computer vision, deep learning) PyTorch is substantially faster as well, especially in data augmentation where it’s not just a thin layer over cudnn. That said, you’re right. There’s no way I’d deploy it to production.

Have you looked at ONNX? It is a neural network exchange format that, in particular, lets you deploy PyTorch models in production via Caffe2. Here is a tutorial: http://pytorch.org/docs/master/onnx.html Disclaimer: I work on Caffe2 team (not on ONNX, though)

Does the ONNX thing actually work?

I'm super skeptical of these interchanges, because it seems very difficult to avoid train/test skew. Any difference in detail between the two implementations is a potential problem. I can imagine different order of operations putting out some values by 0.1%, causing 1% eventual loss of accuracy.

Re: Tensorflow sucks

#102

An appropriate quote: "If you can't intelligently argue for both sides of an issue, you don't understand the issue well enough to argue for either." There are many people for whom the declarative paradigm is a huge plus. I would say there are at least 2 major approaches in running fast neural networks: 1. Figure out the common big components and make fast versions of those. 2. Figure out the common small components a…

The assumption that there are always two intelligent sides to an issue is a pretty big assumption. If you understand both sides of an issue really deeply and you choose side B and are against side A, you should be able to argue intelligently for side A otherwise your choice of side B is not made intelligently, but this falls down on further examination.

If you believe that side B is correct and side A is incorrect given your deep understanding of the issue then an argument for side A is in some way not intelligent because you must keep out your most potent arguments for side B from your argument for side A - you must deny their existence in your head and thus argue from a less intelligent position than you normally would.

The ability to argue both sides is only really possible when all sides are considered trivial in their differences.

on edit: improved formatting for legibility.

Re: Tensorflow sucks

#103

An appropriate quote: "If you can't intelligently argue for both sides of an issue, you don't understand the issue well enough to argue for either." There are many people for whom the declarative paradigm is a huge plus. I would say there are at least 2 major approaches in running fast neural networks: 1. Figure out the common big components and make fast versions of those. 2. Figure out the common small components a…

>An appropriate quote: "If you can't intelligently argue for both sides of an issue, you don't understand the issue well enough to argue for either." Cannibalism rules!

https://www.scaruffi.com/news/opin0712.html

Caveat emptor: Scaruffi doesn't hesitate to let his imagination far surpass his apparent handle on the facts, but hey they are just opinions, so let's not ruin the fun too easily.

"I reached the conclusion that the meat diet started with cannibalism: we ate humans before we ate animals. And cannibalism started with women eating their own children, and children eating their grandparents.

Cats do it all the time: when they cannot afford too many kittens, the mom eats some of them. If she didn't, it would reduce the chances that the others survive. Since they are YOUR children, you don't feel too bad eating them: they are flesh of your flesh, aren't they?

You have to think like a woman of two million years ago, who was pregnant all the time, did not know how to prevent pregnancy nor how to perform abortion, and had to feed many children, often with no male partner to help out.

The tradition of eating old people is documented in many cultures: nothing was wasted, and it would have been silly to waste the flesh of a dead person.

Once you start eating your own family members, it becomes natural to start eating other humans. In prehistory (and even not too long ago) humans from other tribes were not perceived as belonging to the same species: they don't speak my language, their customs are different, they smell different, therefore they are not the same species as me. Killing them and eating them was not any more morally wrong than eating a hamburger today.

The main meal was brains: our brains need a lot of proteins, and another brain gives the highest amount of proteins in the shortest time. Hence the tradition of killing an enemy and eating his brain.

Then cost/benefit analysis made humans realize that humans were difficult and dangerous to kill, whereas many animals were easy to kill and provided almost the same proteins. That's when domestication started: feeding on defenseless cows and goats was a lot safer than feeding on humans armed with spears and axes. That's when cannibalism became a thing of the past, of primitive men. However, it was still practiced (and valued) until recently in many places of the world.

We are living in the first age free of cannibalism in the history of the human species. It's an age just a few decades old. The age of cannibalism lasted several million years. Put things in perspective and, as repugnant as it sounds today, cannibalism can be said to be the norm, and non-cannibalism the abnormality. If some day the whole world becomes vegetarian, you the meat eater will look like a savage but today you think of vegetarians as lunatic people.

There are 1500 animal species that are cannibals, and 75 of them are mammals, and one of them is the chimp, our closest relative. And now you may continue to eat your hamburger."

Re: Tensorflow sucks

#104
> First, let’s look at the Tensorflow example

> Now let’s look at a Pytorch example that does the same thing

Reminds me Escobar (russian philosopher, not to be confused with Lopez-Escobar) theorem, which approximately translates into English as "With no alternative choice of the two opposite entities, both will be an exceptional nonsense."

Re: Tensorflow sucks

#105
post #94
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After being exposed to several declarative tools during my career, I must say they age poorly: make, autoconf, Tensorflow, and so on. They may start out being elegant, but every successful library is eventually (ab)used for something the original authors didn't envision, and with declarative syntax it descends into madness of "So if I change A to B here does it apply before or after C becomes D?" At least Tensorflow…

I believe that make's declarative is not the cause of it's problems at all - it's poor syntax and lack of support for programming abstractions is what makes it clunky to use. Something like rake, which operates on the same fundamental principles (i.e. declarative dependency description) but using ruby syntax has aged better.

Indeed. Getting these text based configuration tools work requires a lot of experience in language design.

Lots of tools become accidentally Turing complete, like Make. You need to plan these things from the start. If you want any computation possible at all, you need to be extremely vigilant, and base your language on firm foundations. See eg Dhall, a non-Turing complete configuration language (http://www.haskellforall.com/2016/12/dhall-non-turing-comple...).

If you are happy to get Turing completeness, you might want to write your tool as an embedded DSL and piggy-bank on an existing language, declarative or otherwise.

Re: Tensorflow sucks

#106

An appropriate quote: "If you can't intelligently argue for both sides of an issue, you don't understand the issue well enough to argue for either." There are many people for whom the declarative paradigm is a huge plus. I would say there are at least 2 major approaches in running fast neural networks: 1. Figure out the common big components and make fast versions of those. 2. Figure out the common small components a…

The assumption that there are always two intelligent sides to an issue is a pretty big assumption. If you understand both sides of an issue really deeply and you choose side B and are against side A, you should be able to argue intelligently for side A otherwise your choice of side B is not made intelligently, but this falls down on further examination. If you believe that side B is correct and side A is incorrect gi…

You should still be able to give the other side the best defense imaginable. (See 'steelmanning'.)

Re: Tensorflow sucks

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>An appropriate quote: "If you can't intelligently argue for both sides of an issue, you don't understand the issue well enough to argue for either." Cannibalism rules!

https://www.scaruffi.com/news/opin0712.html Caveat emptor: Scaruffi doesn't hesitate to let his imagination far surpass his apparent handle on the facts, but hey they are just opinions, so let's not ruin the fun too easily. "I reached the conclusion that the meat diet started with cannibalism: we ate humans before we ate animals. And cannibalism started with women eating their own children, and children eating their…

Interesting take. Makes you think about the apparently rather durable popularity of zombie horror, which even outside its occasional fads retains a strong base of adherents.

Re: Tensorflow sucks

#108
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption that there are always two intelligent sides to an issue is a pretty big assumption. If you understand both sides of an issue really deeply and you choose side B and are against side A, you should be able to argue intelligently for side A otherwise your choice of side B is not made intelligently, but this falls down on further examination. If you believe that side B is correct and side A is incorrect gi…

You should still be able to give the other side the best defense imaginable. (See 'steelmanning'.)

ok, I've seen stellmanning? https://www.google.com/search?dcr=0&source=hp&q=stellmanning...

on edit: never mind, I see you mean steelmanning. However that does not really have anything to do with what I said, you should be able to give someone the best defence imaginable, but what if the best defence imaginable is shit compared to the other side. Then you cannot argue both sides equally, this does not mean you do not understand either side. It means one side is actually wrong, and the other is correct.

Re: Tensorflow sucks

#109
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should still be able to give the other side the best defense imaginable. (See 'steelmanning'.)

ok, I've seen stellmanning? https://www.google.com/search?dcr=0&source=hp&q=stellmanning... on edit: never mind, I see you mean steelmanning. However that does not really have anything to do with what I said, you should be able to give someone the best defence imaginable, but what if the best defence imaginable is shit compared to the other side. Then you cannot argue both sides equally, this does not mean you do not…

Sorry, I can't spell. It's steelmanning. (Edited the other comment.)

The idea is to beat a steelman of the idea. Because that's a greater victory than beating a strawman.

Re: Tensorflow sucks

#110
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn't "utterly destroy" the quotation. It's pretty easy to argue the virtues of cannibalism, it's just that for modern day society they do not trump the downsides. For example, cannibalism has successfully prevented death by starvation (e.g. the Donner Party), and it reduces the need for disposing of the dead. It's an application of reduce-reuse-recycle. Some species of other animals practice it as part of their…

Small correction: not brain parasites, but specifically prions (misfolded protein that fascinatingly self-replicate). Kuru[1] (closely related to Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease and Alzheimer's) was extensively studied last century in the Fore people of Papua New Guinea (which were practicing cannibalism as a funerary rite), culminating in the awarding of the 1997 Nobel Prize[2] for the discovery of the prion, a completely…

Do you get the prions only from rare meat? Would thorough cooking protect?
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