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Is Zcash’s encrypted blockchain Satoshi’s vision?

cryptopotato.com

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Re: Is Zcash’s encrypted blockchain Satoshi’s vision?

#11
post #2

No. Two words. Trusted setup. Monero is way closer to Satoshi's vision, up to and including having an unknown inventor.

The other issue with zcash is an ever growing double-spend list. Monero also suffers this flaw, unfortunately. If either one scaled up to just bitcoin's level of activity, there'd be severe problems.

Mimblewimble is far more likely to be a lasting privacy gain since the technology it is built upon, Blockstream's confidential transactions, has properties more like Bitcoin's in this regard, and perhaps even better as you can sync from a partially-pruned history.

Re: Is Zcash’s encrypted blockchain Satoshi’s vision?

#12
post #9
post #2

No. Two words. Trusted setup. Monero is way closer to Satoshi's vision, up to and including having an unknown inventor.

The trusted setup is not as bad as those two words make it sound without any context: 1. All people present in the trusted setup would have to be colluding or be compromised to cause an issue. 2. Some of these people have reason to make the currency succeed, because they own large amounts of zcash. 3. Some show the lengths they went to to prevent compromise: https://petertodd.org/2016/cypherpunk-desert-bus-zcash-trus…

Erm, #1 is not that far from being achieved. IIRC, that's just 6 people, guarding hundreds of millions of dollars.

There lies the inherent problem with "trusted setup", why leave there a possibility of 6 people not colluding? That just isn't scientific or exhuastive. Just drop the IFs, go with Monero's method of RingCT.

Beside, Monero's privacy is a working feature today, with no pre-mines, unlike ZCash.

Re: Is Zcash’s encrypted blockchain Satoshi’s vision?

#13
post #11
post #2

No. Two words. Trusted setup. Monero is way closer to Satoshi's vision, up to and including having an unknown inventor.

The other issue with zcash is an ever growing double-spend list. Monero also suffers this flaw, unfortunately. If either one scaled up to just bitcoin's level of activity, there'd be severe problems. Mimblewimble is far more likely to be a lasting privacy gain since the technology it is built upon, Blockstream's confidential transactions, has properties more like Bitcoin's in this regard, and perhaps even better as y…

Could you elaborate on this flaw, or perhaps point to a link - especially with regards to Monero?

Re: Is Zcash’s encrypted blockchain Satoshi’s vision?

#14
post #13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other issue with zcash is an ever growing double-spend list. Monero also suffers this flaw, unfortunately. If either one scaled up to just bitcoin's level of activity, there'd be severe problems. Mimblewimble is far more likely to be a lasting privacy gain since the technology it is built upon, Blockstream's confidential transactions, has properties more like Bitcoin's in this regard, and perhaps even better as y…

Could you elaborate on this flaw, or perhaps point to a link - especially with regards to Monero?

Yes, I'm pretty sure that neither Zcash or Monero allow double-spends. Wondering what the context of that statement could possibly be. Any successful cryptocurrency must solve the double-spend problem or there's no value in the ledger at all.

Re: Is Zcash’s encrypted blockchain Satoshi’s vision?

#15
post #13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other issue with zcash is an ever growing double-spend list. Monero also suffers this flaw, unfortunately. If either one scaled up to just bitcoin's level of activity, there'd be severe problems. Mimblewimble is far more likely to be a lasting privacy gain since the technology it is built upon, Blockstream's confidential transactions, has properties more like Bitcoin's in this regard, and perhaps even better as y…

Could you elaborate on this flaw, or perhaps point to a link - especially with regards to Monero?

Here's a stack exchange question:

https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/2158/what-is-mone...

TL;DR Monero requires every transaction input to include a "key image" (an elliptic curve point, looks like a public key). The key image is deterministically constructed from the actual coin being spent, without actually revealing which one it is. So making sure the chain never contains a repeated key image is sufficient to make sure that no coin is ever spent more than once, without actually knowing whether any one specific coin is spent. This is how Monero achieves its inflation/non-cloning guarantee.

(There was a famous double-spending bug in CryptoNote protocols you might have heard about that resulted in limitless inflation. This was because the Ed25519 signature scheme used has a co-factor of 8, a stupid performance "enhancement" that DJB should really re-think. As a result, a given key-image had a 1-in-8 chance of being malleable by adding a point of order 8. It's fixed by checking that the key image is actually contained in the group. These sorts of unexpected consequences are why serious cryptographers don't use co-factors other than 1, or other fiddly tricks that get you small constant implementation gains with risky not well studied trade-offs. This is also why the current push to standardize on DJB designed crypto solutions is borderline insanity. But I digress.)

The mathematics of what zerocash does is wildly different, but it serves essentially the same purpose. Each private/anonymous spend in zerocash has some bits associated with it that are generated in a non-linking way from the input being spent. As long as there are never two transactions in the entire block chain history with the same value for this field, there are no double-spends.

-----

The problem is that these can never go away. In bitcoin if a coin is spent, you can prune knowledge of that coin from your local history. This is what the "-prune" option does in recent versions of Bitcoin Core. You still need to receive and process the transaction once when you sync the chain, but you can then throw it away if you are space constrained. Mimblewimble potentially improves the situation even better by boiling down each transaction to just a single EC point, the script kernel, such that a client needs only the current UTXO set and the full history of all these kernels to do initial sync. The rest of the data can well and truly be forgotten. But although those kernels are needed for initial sync, pruning nodes can throw them away afterwards. They are not needed for the validation of future blocks in any way.

TL;DR: The amount of data a verifier needs to keep around to validate a new block in bitcoin depends only on the number of unspent outputs. The full block chain is only needed for initial sync. This is asymptotically O(current size of bitcoin ecosystem). The amount of data needed by Monero or Zerocash, on the other hand, is (a constant factor of) the entire block chain used by these systems. This is asymptotically O(every transaction ever). Monero and ZCash are chugging along now, but every single block found increases the amount of data a verifier needs to keep around. That doesn't scale....

Re: Is Zcash’s encrypted blockchain Satoshi’s vision?

#16
post #2

No. Two words. Trusted setup. Monero is way closer to Satoshi's vision, up to and including having an unknown inventor.

Mimblewimble [0] is a radically different approach to privacy and fungibility, making all transactions look alike.

[0] http://mimblewimble.cash/

Re: Is Zcash’s encrypted blockchain Satoshi’s vision?

#17
The unfortunate thing to me about Zcash is that privacy is opt-in. It would be like if Signal was default no privacy, but then you could enable it per message if you wanted to send something secret. Governments could just ban you from turning the privacy on and we've already seen this happen with TOR. Opting into privacy "raises suspicion", and we need services where privacy is enabled by default. Monero does this.

Re: Is Zcash’s encrypted blockchain Satoshi’s vision?

#18
post #10

My guess is that Satoshi's vision wasn't that Bitcoin would start a frenzy of "blockchain technology" endeavors that feature the movement of capital to promoters and investors, and between speculators.

I cannot find it now - but I am sure that he wrote somewhere about competing currencies and lateral inflation.

Re: Is Zcash’s encrypted blockchain Satoshi’s vision?

#19
post #15
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on this flaw, or perhaps point to a link - especially with regards to Monero?

Here's a stack exchange question: https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/2158/what-is-mone... TL;DR Monero requires every transaction input to include a "key image" (an elliptic curve point, looks like a public key). The key image is deterministically constructed from the actual coin being spent, without actually revealing which one it is. So making sure the chain never contains a repeated key image is sufficient…

Thank you very, very much for that long and thorough answer. I need to read it through more thoroughly when I return from work. But sounds like I may need to re-think my holdings of Monero :)

Re: Is Zcash’s encrypted blockchain Satoshi’s vision?

#20
I think the fact that there is no Satoshi means that 1. his/her/their vision is up for grabs and 2. whoever did create Bitcoin didn't want people continuously asking him/her/them what their vision for this is. It hasn't even been 10 years, why are we already arguing over catechism?
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