Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 136 posts

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#121

Post by racer-v »

mjfl wrote: post #33

Maybe they are, humans have never been rational. It is much more important to have vaccines and antibiotics than to be happy. People reading this crap who then get the urge to strip down to a loincloth and run into the woods should be aware that these viewpoints always portray the best case scenario. Forget germs, starvation, or exposure (which are enough to make you miserable / kill you by themselves), what about ot…

It is much more important to have vaccines and antibiotics than to be happy.

Is this really true? That it's better to live until 70 or 80 and be unhappy your whole life, than to have a happy life while running the risk of an early death from a preventable disease or infection? I know which I'd pick.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#122

Post by racer-v »

mjfl wrote: post #83
3131s wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also comparing it to the best outcomes for individuals in modern society. It's not like people don't still get raped, killed over resources, and finished off prematurely by disease and starvation. I'm not sure modern civilization would look the same without a long and continuing history of people sacrificed at the altar of progress.

but at least in society in the worst case I have police, medicine, insurance.. people working for money to help you

It's a common misconception that the job of police is to help people. Their job is to apprehend and arrest people. Whether that actually helps anyone or not is highly situational.

Same logic applies to medicine and insurance.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#123

Post by racer-v »

marchenko wrote: post #93
CryptoPunk wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homicide rates in hunter gatherer societies are extremely high: https://evolutionistx.wordpress.com/2015/06/08/no-hunter-gat...

This is not a settled question. The references in your link are mostly new-world non-state (nonstate != hunter-gatherer), whereas Africa, where most of human foraging history occurred is under-represented. There are significant differences in environmental constraints and physical and social ecology between these regions. The link also mischaracterises the argument that anthropologists make: they do not believe that…

they do not believe that foragers had a fundamentally different ("noble savage in a Marxist feminist garden") character than moderns, but that their incentives and constraints differed.

This is also not a settled question. Many scientists believe that the incentives and constraints on settled peoples led to very different genetic pressures, thus leading to a very different character in modern societies than those from from a mere 10k-20k years ago.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#124

Post by mjfl »

racer-v wrote: post #122
mjfl wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but at least in society in the worst case I have police, medicine, insurance.. people working for money to help you

It's a common misconception that the job of police is to help people. Their job is to apprehend and arrest people. Whether that actually helps anyone or not is highly situational. Same logic applies to medicine and insurance.

Their job is to apprehend and arrest people who break laws. In a society without them, there's no one to arrest those who assault you, rob from you, rape you, or murder you. And if you don't think that's necessary you are incredibly naive.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#125

Post by tigershark »

Radim wrote: post #109
sek3 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have civilization today. We have a consumption machine that has gone of the rails trapping everyone from CEOs, Generals, Judges, Politicians to Janitors in mindless superficial activity. We have more in common with an ant colony than whatever civilization ideal anyone ever imagined.

This is an interesting point. I was born in East Europe "behind the iron curtain", but lived in the west for a long time. And then East Asia for even longer. There are huge differences in how people perceive "civilization" and how "trapped" they feel vs actually are. The west with its rigorous rules, both explicit and implicit. Regulation of every facet of your life, to a degree you don't realize (it's so natural! bu…

Honestly I will be extremely happy when people from south east Asia or from Europe or from everywhere in the world will be banned from driving and self driving cars can do it, wasting so much less lives. I have never been to Thailand, but in the two times that I have been in Philippines I have seen two corpses under a blanket because of two separate road accidents. Much, much, better to limit the so called "freedom" of some people if it helps to save innocent human lives.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#126

Post by mjfl »

racer-v wrote: post #121
mjfl wrote: post #33

Maybe they are, humans have never been rational. It is much more important to have vaccines and antibiotics than to be happy. People reading this crap who then get the urge to strip down to a loincloth and run into the woods should be aware that these viewpoints always portray the best case scenario. Forget germs, starvation, or exposure (which are enough to make you miserable / kill you by themselves), what about ot…

It is much more important to have vaccines and antibiotics than to be happy. Is this really true? That it's better to live until 70 or 80 and be unhappy your whole life, than to have a happy life while running the risk of an early death from a preventable disease or infection? I know which I'd pick.

It is obviously better to be happy than sad, but you've ignored 2 facts: 1) humans are very bad at appreciating what they have, and 2) humans are very bad at predicting what will make them happy. People who are tired of this "grass is always greener" capitalist world and yearn for simpler things are doing exactly that, thinking that the "grass is greener" on the other side when it isn't. All people will eventually become miserable in the wilderness because of some tragedy, then they die, that's how nature works. Thus it is more important to have vacciness and antibiotics than to be happy because your brain is stupid and irrational, doesn't appreciate what it has, and fantasizes of edenic states elsewhere that don't exist.

Also, you know which one you would pick. You've already picked it. As technology increases, there's nothing preventing you from slowly moving out into the wilderness besides an acknowledgement that modern comforts are worth it.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#127

Post by racer-v »

mjfl wrote: post #126
racer-v wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is much more important to have vaccines and antibiotics than to be happy. Is this really true? That it's better to live until 70 or 80 and be unhappy your whole life, than to have a happy life while running the risk of an early death from a preventable disease or infection? I know which I'd pick.

It is obviously better to be happy than sad, but you've ignored 2 facts: 1) humans are very bad at appreciating what they have, and 2) humans are very bad at predicting what will make them happy. People who are tired of this "grass is always greener" capitalist world and yearn for simpler things are doing exactly that, thinking that the "grass is greener" on the other side when it isn't. All people will eventually be…

there's nothing preventing you from slowly moving out into the wilderness

Yes, there is - people don't exist in a solitary state; they only can survive in groups. It requires dozens of humans to band together for any chance of survival and reproduction. Even then it can't just be done in a vacant lot; it requires an ecosystem such as only exists today in national parks and reserves, where hunting and gathering is not allowed.

So just because a single person can't just walk into the bushes and survive, doesn't mean that the 21st Century urban lifestyle is superior to a hunter-gatherer society in every way. It's not an either-or: both have advantages.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#128

Post by racer-v »

mjfl wrote: post #124
racer-v wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a common misconception that the job of police is to help people. Their job is to apprehend and arrest people. Whether that actually helps anyone or not is highly situational. Same logic applies to medicine and insurance.

Their job is to apprehend and arrest people who break laws. In a society without them, there's no one to arrest those who assault you, rob from you, rape you, or murder you. And if you don't think that's necessary you are incredibly naive.

The point is that they may be ncessary, but they're not sufficient.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#129

Post by racer-v »

tigershark wrote: post #125
Radim wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting point. I was born in East Europe "behind the iron curtain", but lived in the west for a long time. And then East Asia for even longer. There are huge differences in how people perceive "civilization" and how "trapped" they feel vs actually are. The west with its rigorous rules, both explicit and implicit. Regulation of every facet of your life, to a degree you don't realize (it's so natural! bu…

Honestly I will be extremely happy when people from south east Asia or from Europe or from everywhere in the world will be banned from driving and self driving cars can do it, wasting so much less lives. I have never been to Thailand, but in the two times that I have been in Philippines I have seen two corpses under a blanket because of two separate road accidents. Much, much, better to limit the so called "freedom"…

People who would trade freedom for safety deserve neither.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#130

Post by valuearb »

pvaldes wrote: post #69
valuearb wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says hunter gatherers didn’t conquer and enslave?

hunter/gatherer societies are always small and relatively disorganized. There is a limit to the number of people that you can feed hunting unless you are always moving to fresh territories, so there is a limit also to desire to build cities or to the number of your permanent structures. And you shouldn't allow other tribes to enter in your territory or you will suffer from hunger. You can have problems in winter or w…

Just because no one recorded the histories of hunter gatherers, doesn’t mean they were all sweetness and light. They may not have been able to raise large armies, but someone was raping the daughters of neighboring tribes. There is a reason we still have some Neanderthal genes.
Post reply on HN