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Confessions of a Failed Female Coder

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Re: Confessions of a Failed Female Coder

#101

Post by mjevans »

dnautics wrote: post #43
Animats wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's strange here is that the 1980s and 1990s were the period of the "lone coder". This was when Microsoft advertised in recruiting that every programmer got a private office with a door they could close. That's in the past. Facebook now has one of the largest bullpens on the planet in Menlo Park, so people can collaborate. Between office layout, "agile", Slack, Github, and StackExchange, programming is more of a s…

maybe the 'women are social and men are loners' trope is the wrong mechanistic explanation for gender disparity among coders. FWIW/anecdata: I know way more women than men who are self-claimed 'introverts' that would stay at home if they could get away with not working, so I would not be in the least surprised if this explanation were a dud.

I'm going to read your intent as: 'get away with not going to an office'.

Based on that, I'll say that measuring actual work in cognitively focused fields is difficult if not impossible.

The entire premise of compensation based on or a requirement built around a given minimum or maximum hours of work is crazy when the actual work that happens is mostly cognitive and not literally constructive. A job of that type practically demands a salaried payout and advancement based on overall project success/contributions (which might be incredibly fuzzy to measure and difficult to prove or compare as facts).

Re: Confessions of a Failed Female Coder

#102

Post by analog31 »

bartread wrote: post #13
politician wrote: post #6

> The ’80s were also the era of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, the rise of the archetype of the lone, antisocial hacker in a garage spending all-nighters building machines that were at many times ambiguous and without a clear path to success. Without going into too much more detail because this essay is already longer than it needs to be, this can be seen as the linchpin in which computer science took a hard turn toward…

The thing is that's not how Bill Gates and Steve Jobs actually worked either (also Steve wasn't a programmer). This idea of the "lone, antisocial hacker" doesn't make any kind of sense in terms of the history I've read or experienced. E.g, take a look at Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution . These guys - and they were almost invariably guys - were nothing if not sociable, at least with eachother. What they wer…

I suppose in the 1980s it became possible to become a lone hacker simply because you actually could have an affordable computer at home in your bedroom. Even then though, there was a lot of socialising with other hackers at school (and a lot of bragging).

That's an interesting point. When I was in college, programming meant spending hours in a crowded, noisy terminal room, that was definitely a social atmosphere. The students certainly interacted and collaborated, plus the advanced students helped the beginners.

One evening, I was sitting in my dorm, and my roommate came in: "There's a pretty girl down in the terminal room. Maybe she needs some help." Okay, I kinda knew what to expect, but went down there anyway. The "girl" was the top CS student, very sharp, and a friend of mine. I told her what happened, and she laughed.

Re: Confessions of a Failed Female Coder

#103

Post by fernandotakai »

jansho wrote: post #92
skinnymuch wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a specific part of what you're referring to with > This is why I dislike Damore. I don't care what his manifesto says, but I bet that he knew exactly what he was doing. Playing games is pathetic, dude. I haven't read the manifesto and don't want to procrastinate now. Are you saying he knew his stuff about women being inferior for the work Googlers do (which I wholly disagree with) was him partially BSing and…

I haven't read it either, and won't like to. After his arrogant/weird responses, I'm sure it's pure intellectual bullshit. I don't know what his exact motive was, but he sure seems to enjoy the storms he's caused. I just dislike people like that.

uhhh, how can you say it's pure intellectual bullshit without reading? it would me like me calling you an asshole without knowing you.

Re: Confessions of a Failed Female Coder

#104

Post by musage »

jansho wrote: post #55

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction in her post: > Despite the cargo shorts and the loner attitude, I learned like a girl. And: > it was an all-girls school, and every single other woman who took that computer science class that year became an engineer or scientist. Hmm, it sounds more like she has a different learning style, which is not necessarily down to her femaleness. That said, I think that at a fundame…

> we gain richer insights when we take both into account

If there really were fundamental differences, that would not be possible. When I take someone elses viewpoint or way of thinking or anything else that is fundamentally different from what I know "into account", what I really take into account what I imagine that other viewpoint to be, cobbled together from the things I do know. I don't say this to contradict, I think empathy goes a long way and is a very real thing, even though it doesn't mean we magically see things how others do. And luckily we have communication. We can make our own viewpoints and feelings clear, and encourage others to be open about theirs.

I'm wary about fundamental differences and all that.. spectra, maybe (I'm not sold on mutual exclusivity at all), but even then certainly not with one dimension and two poles -- but assuming it were literally that way, then there would be only halves, and nobody with an overview. Just abstractions about the other, which are useless, realize the self and let the other self self-realize, communicate, done. Sorry for sounding like a hippie, no dig against hippies intended. It's really hard to talk about this stuff, but not for political correctness and not for the assholes who take all sorts of things and misuse them anway, just in general.

Re: Confessions of a Failed Female Coder

#105

Post by anifit01 »

I fail to understand how this is a men VS women issue, as comments here are interpreting this. As evidenced by this part in the article, it is more a this person issue. Or their learning style, as one comment has already pointed out.

>It wasn’t my teacher’s fault; she tried hard to engage me and figure out why I wasn’t connecting well with the work. Nor was I facing discrimination or isolation based on my gender — it was an all-girls school, and every single other woman who took that computer science class that year became an engineer or scientist.

I felt compelled to make a comment myself because I am a woman, and I am kind of tired of broad, sweeping generalizations about women and how they learn or want to work.

I think there's something to note here, though, and that she was driven towards a particular field because of her childhood experiences. She sounds like someone who would have benefitted from guidance at that age. Human experiences are complex, and not only because of the number of varying factors that can shape and impact them. I don't think its simply about sex differences.

Re: Confessions of a Failed Female Coder

#106

Post by UncleMeat »

mirko22 wrote: post #77
walshemj wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mm you mean go of the deep end into far right politics this isn't setting up a Branch of young conservatives in the London google offices is it.

How did Damore went of to deep end of far right politics?

Have you seen his subreddit? Or his comments about the KKK?

Re: Confessions of a Failed Female Coder

#107

Post by anifit01 »

kwipkwip wrote: post #89
maxxxxx wrote: post #76

I am more the lone wolf type myself. I am fine with collaborating, actually enjoy it when needed, but I prefer doing the majority of my work alone or with a small team and banging my/our head against a problem until I/we have figured it out. What's starting to bother me is that there is a trend where extroverted people (like her I assume) try to change education and workplaces to suit their style but introverted peop…

I am a female software engineer who is an introvert too. It's wrong to assume that men want to work alone and women want to work with people... it ignores a lot individuals like me. I currently work in an open office environment and find it very hard to concentrate with people around me. I don't want people to assume that bc I'm female I want to work with people. I really really don't. People should stop trying to fo…

>People should stop trying to force women as a category into computer science, and just focus on the individual.

That would be ideal. I think the reason they have to "force" anything is because of the gender gaps that get reported. But yes, any manager shouldn't make assumptions about how someone wants to work, or will excel at work, based on gender.

Separately, I hope the gender gaps in computer science or math etc. can be corrected by exposing boys and girls to education and career choices in a gender neutral manner, which I don't think happens enough.

Edit to clarify.

Re: Confessions of a Failed Female Coder

#108

Post by maxxxxx »

anifit01 wrote: post #107
kwipkwip wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a female software engineer who is an introvert too. It's wrong to assume that men want to work alone and women want to work with people... it ignores a lot individuals like me. I currently work in an open office environment and find it very hard to concentrate with people around me. I don't want people to assume that bc I'm female I want to work with people. I really really don't. People should stop trying to fo…

>People should stop trying to force women as a category into computer science, and just focus on the individual. That would be ideal. I think the reason they have to "force" anything is because of the gender gaps that get reported. But yes, any manager shouldn't make assumptions about how someone wants to work, or will excel at work, based on gender. Separately, I hope the gender gaps in computer science or math etc.…

But then you should also expose people to education and career choices in a personality type neutral manner. School was a pretty tough ride for me because I am shy and introvert although I am a white male. Gender and race are not the only dimensions along which people can get discriminated. There are also looks, being outgoing or not, athletic skills, fashion tastes and many others.

Re: Confessions of a Failed Female Coder

#109

Post by kukx »

jansho wrote: post #55

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction in her post: > Despite the cargo shorts and the loner attitude, I learned like a girl. And: > it was an all-girls school, and every single other woman who took that computer science class that year became an engineer or scientist. Hmm, it sounds more like she has a different learning style, which is not necessarily down to her femaleness. That said, I think that at a fundame…

> This is why I dislike Damore. I don't care what his manifesto says ... Playing games is pathetic, dude.

Well, according to his statement he was a top performer at Google, so we can assume he was not afraid of being replaced by a woman. Besides he just started a discussion in a response to, according to him, shady moves in regards of equality performed by Google.

It is worth to listen to the other side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU

Re: Confessions of a Failed Female Coder

#110

Post by TACIXAT »

I am curious what approaches can be taken to make education more approachable for people who learn collaboratively and have a social focus. If anyone has example curricula changes or teaching approaches that they could share it would be greatly appreciated.
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