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After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

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Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#261

Post by hpcjoe »

ianai wrote: post #179
hpcjoe wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Rent seeking behavior, to extract more from tenants would be expected. This would spread. Causing other prices to rise.

There’s not going to be that much UBI to extract. Plus the assured UBI would empower people to move away from excise rent seekers.

I am going to assume I am more cynical than you on this. Rent seeking behavior is usually aimed hardest at those least likely to protest, or without resources to protest. Someone can rent seek another if the other person has no other effective choices, regardless of UBI or not. That is, UBI in isolation will likely fail.

UBI is likely, at best, a bandaid, and should not be isolated. Should be part of a broader scope of programs that help people jumpstart a move, training, etc.

That said, I do think we need it[1]. But it should be combined with other programs that help people (not redistributive programs per se, but things that help people do the things that they can't do or even consider doing now).

[1] I think we need it, as disruption will continue across industries, geos, and will impact people in very negative ways. So we need a way for them to help themselves while they consider options. If this means helping them get mobile and settled at a new location, help finding a job, and training, that could be tremendous if linked with UBI.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#262

Post by nate_meurer »

sctb wrote: post #188
24gttghh wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smoking makes you feel better in the short term because your body is jonesing for that nicotine, and dopamine gets released when you give your body the nicotine. Then you don't smoke, and you feel shitty until the next nicotine hit. You give a poor justification for an addiction, and the happiness is merely a result of the feedback loop of nicotine > dopamine > no nicotine > dopamine crash > nicotine > dopamine > etc…

Can you please stop? The problem with this line of commenting is that it's predictable, reductionist, and uncivil—not a good combination for Hacker News.

The parent comment is neither uncivil nor needlessly reductionistic. And why exactly does predictability constitute a demerit?

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#263

Post by donavanm »

megaman22 wrote: post #4

No shit. The tricky thing with this kind of work is it has to be all cash-only, under the table. Best if nobody sees you doing it, which rules out a lot of the more legitimate kinds of side work - if you're supposed to be 80% disabled, it looks a little fishy when you're out cutting lawns or splitting firewood or caretaking... I grew up on the northern end of Appalachia, and huge numbers of people there supplement th…

I grew up in the california mountains. Marijuana was a notable factor in the local economy. When CA passed medical marijuana I dont recall any adverse impact on prices. My supposition is this basically used existing supply and allowed for very small scale personal production. As recently as 2010 wholesale prices were in $3000/lb range.

When CO & WA legalized recreational use they followed the liquor industry producer/distributor/retailer model. This explicitely provided for large scale commercial production. By 2014-15 wholesale prices had dropped to $2000/lb or so. Today I think wholesale is down around $1000/lb on the west coast. In some shops retail prices are $1250-1500/lb.

In short, yes prices have dropped precipitously in the past few years. And Id expect further decline as large commerical operations continue to grow in well regulated states. Small personal grows will still be strictly profitable. But the small "family business" black market operations are being squeezed quite hard.

Caveat, numbers from memory and im not in the business myself.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#264

Post by curun1r »

EADGBE wrote: post #244
curun1r wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you, but I think there's a lot of people see the kind of people in the article as the opposition to progressive social issues like #BLM, acceptance of immigrants and the very same socialist policies that they survive off of and need to be expanded if these people are to see their lot in life improve. Rural communities overwhelmingly voted for Trump and they form the core of the Fox News constitu…

I didn't get that from this article. I didn't see as much of a political problem as I saw a human problem.

The problems from the article are definitely human problems. The comment I was replying to was about why more people don't care, which absolutely is a political problem.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#265

Post by hpcjoe »

MaysonL wrote: post #238
djrogers wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The basics are largely standardized items. Do you think that if everyone in that story got a $2k BI check that the huts they live in would continue to rent for $300? Doubtful - very doubtful.

They wouldn't continue to live in $300/month huts. They'd be able to move.

You assume they would. As soon as the UBI hits, the 300$ huts become $1300 huts. And we have the same pattern all over again.

Enable them to mobile, independent of UBI. Enable them to get food, health care (real stuff, not the obamacare crap[1]), job training, child care (if needed), relocation and housing assistance. Don't hand them money for these things (apart from UBI), but help them with a health card that handles medical/dental/etc. Give them a "credit" card that they can use with a set of well scrutinized vendors for relo/housing. Etc.

[1] when my $dayjob-1 died, I had to sign my family up for obamacare. About the same amount I paid for my old good plan. Much higher deductibles, covered almost no meds, little hospitalization. The thing needs to be fixed, not repealed. Fixing it is going to be hard as it was designed to fail and be replaced with single payer. So there is that.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#266

Post by pavel_lishin »

simonsarris wrote: post #245
bmurphy1976 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I've been living in Chicago for almost 20 years now and I've only been murdered a couple times. Happens to millions of people in this city every day don't you know?

Hm. http://heyjackass.com/ Certainly not millions, but that's not something I'd be proud of. Nowhere in New Hampshire do people say "don't worry, its just certain parts that have all the violence."

I mean, yes, murder is bad - but are the 58 people dead during September random strangers who got shot? Or is this the result of mostly gang/organized crime violence?

You're not likely to die in a car crash if you don't drive a car.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#267

Post by ianai »

thehardsphere wrote: post #140
ianai wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the economy is pretty terrible in most places. That if anything should be the biggest backing for a UBI.

Really? We should subsidize broken economies in perpetuity, by allowing people to stay in them forever? I think that's only going to cement what we're already seeing, unless people use their UBI to buy luggage and bus fare.

Once people aren’t forced to labor for basic survival they will have options. Right now industry tends to be locality based and very insular. For instance, had Detroit had more than one major industry powering it then the collapse of manufacturing cars wouldn’t have hit them so critically. My point is UBI would increase peoples’ liberties with their time. Suddenly there could be all sorts of cottage industries built ip alongside the larger ones. In times of economic stress, like in all complex systems, diversity helps spread and diminish stress.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#268

Post by bmurphy1976 »

simonsarris wrote: post #245
bmurphy1976 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I've been living in Chicago for almost 20 years now and I've only been murdered a couple times. Happens to millions of people in this city every day don't you know?

Hm. http://heyjackass.com/ Certainly not millions, but that's not something I'd be proud of. Nowhere in New Hampshire do people say "don't worry, its just certain parts that have all the violence."

I agree it's terrible and Chicago could do better but my point is if you really look at the number this stuff is blown way out of proportion. That's no comfort for those who are affected by it, but the odds of it happening to you even in a place like Chicago if you just take a few minor precautions are vanishingly small.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#269

Post by jrs95 »

ocb wrote: post #235
jrs95 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who recently moved to this city, he's not entirely wrong...in 2 years and without ever going to the "bad" parts of mine, I've been mugged in broad daylight, my roommate was assaulted randomly for no reason after his car broke down, I've had a guy threaten to kill me and follow me around when he sees me, and I get a postcard in the mail every other week or so telling me about another one of the homeless guy…

What kind of psychopath-filled nightmare land do you live in?

Columbus, OH lol I suppose I'm probably just unlucky, but you can't deny that the odds of this stuff happening goes way up in an urban area.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#270

Post by m777z »

occultist_throw wrote: post #195

Ive been there. Years ago. Back in '07 got laid off. Company shut down. Lots of us tried to scramble to get jobs, and all the quick low paying jobs filled up. I got into unemployment and started collecting the $207/week. And this, obviously, wasn't enough. It certainly didn't equal to the part that was taken out of my paycheck for "unemployment insurance". 2 weeks turned into a month. Which turned into months, then i…

>It certainly didn't equal to the part that was taken out of my paycheck for "unemployment insurance".

You were getting more than $207/week taken out of your paycheck for unemployment insurance? That's highway robbery!

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