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I was in the MAPS MDMA for PTSD study

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Re: I was in the MAPS MDMA for PTSD study

#101

Post by theonemind »

moretai wrote: post #30

I feel like there has to be a good amount of people in the world who take psychedelics on a regular basis. At least more so than your average person. I'd imagine they are still broken, shattered, and lost individuals. Maybe some people have accessed some secret knowledge on their trips. But for the vast majority, I doubt that's the case. I am not saying that there is no benefit, especially for an extreme case like th…

Well, as far as I understand it, MDMA gives you the ability to examine the trauma without fear or anxiety; taking it doesn't drop secret knowledge in your lap, even randomly.

I'd liken it to having a hazmat suit to perform a cleanup. You don't get anything by putting on the hazmat suit. You get something by not having to stay in the room with a toxic chemical spill anymore that you couldn't get close enough to clean up without the suit.

It's a vehicle, not a destination. Yeah, if you get in and rev the accelerator without putting the car in gear, you're not going anywhere. The benefits should largely come in conjunction with therapy.

Re: I was in the MAPS MDMA for PTSD study

#102

Post by civilian »

moretai wrote: post #82
bduerst wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be because there are people who have experienced otherwise and you seem to be speaking in generalizations instead of experience. This is anecdotal, but taking MDMA once, recreationally and not in a theraputic sessions, helped me with social anxiety. The best analogy I can give is like you're playing a NES game, and it's glitching all over parts of the screen. You're still able to play, but there's interferen…

This is not my original thought, but what if that "beauty" is manufactured? What if it's not genuine beauty, but an illusion created by your mind to validate the experience of taking the MDMA? I guess the research would prove whether that's the case. I realize that's a pretty extreme statement to make. But from what I understand, we hardly realize how the mind works. I am not saying don't dismiss the research. I just…

I rate of people who have bad trips is very low with MDMA. You're right that it's a thing with LSD or Psilocybin. The tripping community has these ideas of "set and settings" that you should strongly adhere to. Make sure you'll be in a chill environment. Eat lightly beforehand. Don't trip if you're not already in a relatively stable spot. I think the idea is that with a therapist (or a seasoned trip-sitter?) they can help guide you out of any bad trips, bad trips being anxiety spirals or something.

Often the most important thing to reassure people who are having a bad trip is that this too will end, and they will feel normal again soon. The fear that the trip will be the new normal is a big fear.

Sometimes people are having bad trips because they are performing the introspection they've long avoided--- they're facing trauma. And in that respect, I think that having a bad trip is actually a _good thing_. Sure, you aren't avoiding what's in your subconscious, you're facing it head on. You might have a bad time in the moment, but it helps the healing process overall.

---

The idea that trips are just a beautiful illusion is... kind of flawed. Our brains are weird, and our thoughts can re-wire how our brains work. If someone is living is the cognitive distortion that they are unloved, but a trip of MDMA reminds them that there is love and unity in the world, then it doesn't really matter whether it's an illusion. Going through life with the belief that everyone is capable and deserve of love and unity and respect _fundamentally makes your life better_, especially if you compare it to the opposite distortion, where you are paranoid and wondering how people are out to take advantage or humiliate you.

I think that MDMA is more about breaking down cognitive distortions with a temporary "well what if PLUR??" thought experiment than it is about just creating an illusion.

Re: I was in the MAPS MDMA for PTSD study

#103

Post by metalliqaz »

PeterisP wrote: post #41
metalliqaz wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the real reason that testing these drugs is illegal isn't USA puritan values/laws. It's because they aren't patented. The synthetic opioids that drug companies are dumping on the population these days are many times more dangerous, but they make a profit for big companies, so they are legal. Powerful drug companies influence research worldwide. They want no competition from drugs that would be generic fr…

This is a big issue. Clinical studies to get a chemical approved for therapeutical use are very expensive, and since most of the chemicals were first explored a long time ago, they can't be patented anymore, so no pharmaceutical company would fund the studies since they won't be able to be the sole provider of that drug (at a premium cost), and public funding for clinical studies is quite low.

I guess that leaves academia?

Re: I was in the MAPS MDMA for PTSD study

#104

Post by lprubin »

anythingnonidin wrote: post #86
yesbabyyes wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks samstave, yes, I am definitely looking for pointers towards something "on grid" in particular. That being said, I am pretty sure I can find the drug, I know some people that I can trust. Preferably it would be administered by the therapist, though. Thanks, too, for the caution. I have already found someone in my native country who is a psychologist who also does AI stuff with Tensorflow, so I trust them alread…

Be aware: "87% of “Molly” analyzed by the DEA between 2009 and 2013 contained 0% MDMA, instead mostly containing “bath salts” like methylone.3" https://rollsafe.org/whats-in-molly/

There are a number of testing kits out there:

http://testkitplus.com/product/mdma-test-kit

Re: I was in the MAPS MDMA for PTSD study

#105

Post by PeterisP »

metalliqaz wrote: post #103
PeterisP wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a big issue. Clinical studies to get a chemical approved for therapeutical use are very expensive, and since most of the chemicals were first explored a long time ago, they can't be patented anymore, so no pharmaceutical company would fund the studies since they won't be able to be the sole provider of that drug (at a premium cost), and public funding for clinical studies is quite low.

I guess that leaves academia?

No, it does not. "Academia" generally means studies funded by public grants (which, as I said above, very rarely would cover drug approval studies) and in some cases academia might implement studies funded by the pharmaceutical companies, but they're not really an independent source of funding for research, at least not in expensive/labor intensive fields like medicine.

In fields where solid research can't be done by a single part-time person (e.g. a teaching professor), research happens only to the extent and in the direction where there's available funding. Even putting a couple grad students on a project for a year (i.e., a very small project) requires external funding, much less the extensive studies needed to prove that a particular chemical is safe for human use and has a therapeutic effect.

Re: I was in the MAPS MDMA for PTSD study

#106

Post by Broken_Hippo »

metalliqaz wrote: post #24
tome wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For decades, there has been a near complete effective block on medical research for certain classes of drugs. In the US. One wonders why such a study wasn't carried out in a less puritan country.

It's because the real reason that testing these drugs is illegal isn't USA puritan values/laws. It's because they aren't patented. The synthetic opioids that drug companies are dumping on the population these days are many times more dangerous, but they make a profit for big companies, so they are legal. Powerful drug companies influence research worldwide. They want no competition from drugs that would be generic fr…

I have trouble believing the patent argument. If folks can patent certain strains of crop seeds, why would they not be able to patent a GMO mushroom or a process for GMO yeast to produce such things?

Would they not be able to profit from the stability of lab-produced drugs? Would the generic market not want to produce these? After all, some of the drug manufacturers produce both brand-name and generic drugs [1].

Regardless of patent, I'm pretty sure some players would happily get into the prescription market. On top of this, I'm going to guess since it seems some of these drugs out-perform the available prescription drugs and is cheaper in the long run, insurance companies and governments alike (since some places have universal care and even the US is invested in some forms of healthcare) stand to profit from having this sort of thing be the first line of treatment when possible.

[1] http://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/featurethe...

Re: I was in the MAPS MDMA for PTSD study

#107

Post by farnsworth »

cnp wrote: post #39
parasight wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is an MDMA session?

When a patient sits with a therapist under the influence of MDMA, which typically consists of two doses (100-120mg initially, then 70mg a few hours later) spread over an 6-8 hour period. The patient is largely experiencing their own internal process, but at times the therapist is there to help guide and comfort. Before and after the session there is conventional psychotherapeutic follow-up.

Why two doses? Having no experience with this, 6-8 hours sounds like a long therapy session.

Re: I was in the MAPS MDMA for PTSD study

#108

Post by BRAlNlAC »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #106
metalliqaz wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the real reason that testing these drugs is illegal isn't USA puritan values/laws. It's because they aren't patented. The synthetic opioids that drug companies are dumping on the population these days are many times more dangerous, but they make a profit for big companies, so they are legal. Powerful drug companies influence research worldwide. They want no competition from drugs that would be generic fr…

I have trouble believing the patent argument. If folks can patent certain strains of crop seeds, why would they not be able to patent a GMO mushroom or a process for GMO yeast to produce such things? Would they not be able to profit from the stability of lab-produced drugs? Would the generic market not want to produce these? After all, some of the drug manufacturers produce both brand-name and generic drugs [1]. Rega…

As I understand it, the problem with drugs that aren't patentable is there is no way for those who pay for clinical testing to re-coup their investment. Phase I-IV clinical testing usually goes well over 100 million USD [1] so drug companies need to recoup that money, if the drug isn't protected under patent, once approved, any manufacturer can produce it. Sure they could patent GMO organism that produces it, but the process to produce it chemically is already well understood, Shulgin has published recipes to produce virtually every psychedelic chemically pure in Pikal and Tikal.

[1]https://aspe.hhs.gov/report/examination-clinical-trial-costs...

Re: I was in the MAPS MDMA for PTSD study

#109

Post by empath75 »

farnsworth wrote: post #107
cnp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a patient sits with a therapist under the influence of MDMA, which typically consists of two doses (100-120mg initially, then 70mg a few hours later) spread over an 6-8 hour period. The patient is largely experiencing their own internal process, but at times the therapist is there to help guide and comfort. Before and after the session there is conventional psychotherapeutic follow-up.

Why two doses? Having no experience with this, 6-8 hours sounds like a long therapy session.

At those doses, the first few hours would be fairly mild with just a feeling of closeness, openness and comfort. The second dose would push you closer to the ‘oh my god love is everywhere why didn’t I see this before’ feeling.

Re: I was in the MAPS MDMA for PTSD study

#110

Post by benevol »

yesbabyyes wrote: post #93
pizza wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any references for you but this interview with a psychiatrist who would use MDMA with his patients (and LSD) when he deemed it beneficial is interesting.

Thanks pizza - you seem to lack the "forgot to post link"-extension ;) No, really, I am interested. Please share. Thanks.

Here you go: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ppxx97/meet-the-only-doct...

Switzerland rocks in many ways.

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