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Royalties from Writing a Hit Song with Justin Bieber

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Re: Royalties from Writing a Hit Song with Justin Bieber

#101
post #91
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... you're missing the point entirely The store is Spotify. The brands are artists. If I buy brand A, the store gets a cut, and brand A gets a cut. Brand B gets nothing. With Spotify, if I listen to Repartee, Justin Bieber is still getting some of my money.

Saying Justin Bieber gets some of your money isn't really the whole story. Justin Bieber's songs are streamed billions of times a year, so his music accounts for a very significant percentage of total streams, and consequently use of the Spotify platform. Thus, he is bringing an outsized amount of value to Spotify, so he rightly is deserving of more money. Again, Repartee is free to pull their songs and sell them dir…

Are you sure you are understanding the argument being made here?

I think the argument, which is fair, is that it is very weird that if I pay Spotify $10 a month and listen exclusively to a single artist, that artist may get a penny from me and Justin Bieber may get $3 from me, despite me never listening to a single track from him.

Nobody is arguing Spotify can take it's 20% or whatever, people are just arguing that the calculation Spotify uses to distribute the monthly royalties severely penalizes small artists. (because it looks in aggregate across all listeners instead of divvying per user)

Re: Royalties from Writing a Hit Song with Justin Bieber

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could be, but it seems like he's being well compensated for his effort either way.

Is he? Is he being compensated well when looked at relative to what others have made off of it? It would be interesting to see those numbers.

Just consider it flat out: Pick something you did three years ago. Let's say it took you a day, or a week, or a a good chunk of a month, off and on. With no followup work after that, what's a "reasonable" rate of return for that effort?

I make a good hourly rate, but at the end of each hour, my earning from that hour is done, and none of my hours have every billed at $149k.

Re: Royalties from Writing a Hit Song with Justin Bieber

#103

Get with the times! The way people consume music has radically changed. The music gold rush is over. The simple fact is people listen to music on YouTube and Spotify now. Music is also absurdly high in supply because everyone wants to be a musician. Guess what that does to the value? That's right, music is cheap because it isn't worth much. Whenever I see people complain about this, I just feel sorry for them. The wo…

On the other hand there is money in music, and it could and should increase. When you have 1 billion people paying $10 / month you have $12 billion per year to split between the artists, songwriters, record companies and distributors. That might still be lower than before but it is some money.

Fortunately for Hacker News, most of that economic windfall goes to middlemen.

Re: Royalties from Writing a Hit Song with Justin Bieber

#104
post #86
post #81

Everyone is very focused on the contrast between the Radio royalties and the Streaming royalties - but we all skipped right past that first item: $149,000 in royalties for writing a song (just the first 3 years). That's a lot of money - more than most people make in 2-3 years - for what probably amounted to a few weeks of work. And we're supposed to feel sorry for him because he couldn't retire on it? Seems to me if…

Writing a top hit song is a 'few weeks of work' as much as writing a program is 'hitting the 'submit' button in your source control system.' You don't get paid for all the non-hit songs you wrote.

I get paid the same for all the code I write, but none of it ever has any chance at all of still paying me three years later. None of it. Ever.

Re: Royalties from Writing a Hit Song with Justin Bieber

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Santa's Super Sleigh"?

No but my user name is a big hint. Artist who grew up in South Philly 50-60 years ago and had a hit song so big he still lives off the royalties today.....

Boyz II Men is my guess

Re: Royalties from Writing a Hit Song with Justin Bieber

#106
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand there is money in music, and it could and should increase. When you have 1 billion people paying $10 / month you have $12 billion per year to split between the artists, songwriters, record companies and distributors. That might still be lower than before but it is some money.

Fortunately for Hacker News, most of that economic windfall goes to middlemen.

Unfortunately, it goes to the labels. The streaming services aren't rolling in the dough.

Re: Royalties from Writing a Hit Song with Justin Bieber

#107

Yea... I think the system is rubbish, but I don't really feel very sorry for someone earning $149k from lyrics they wrote 3 years ago. Edit: helped write - per wgj there were 5 authors on that song - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15419567

It's a good amount for the time spent. But you guys need to remember that with creations like this it's probably 1/100 at best when it becomes a hit with that many spins. If you take out prob of already working with somebody really famous that's more like 1 in thousands.

So it's like comparing what founder have earned per hour in some unicorn startup. Yes it's not bad, but when you think about EV of the work it doesn't look all that great.

Re: Royalties from Writing a Hit Song with Justin Bieber

#108
The revenues from live when you write or co-write for a globally recognised artist who tours will always be more lucrative for songwriters than the revenues from recordings. This is because (generally speaking) the revenues for live for songwriters come as a split of box office - and live performance is generally going to gross a lot more than recording for an artist of that stature.

For example, in the UK, PRS takes 3% of box office, and that is then paid out to songwriters based on duration of performance. So for example, if someone sells 1000 tickets at 10 each, there is £300 to be paid to PRS. If there are three acts playing and they each play 30 minutes, songwriters get £3.34 per minute. So if two songwriters co-write a song and agree a 60/40 split and that song is 4 minutes 30 seconds one songwriter would get £9.02 from this show and the other would get £6.01.

Bieber played six dates at the O2 in London - capacity 20,000 - and tickets seem to have been around the £45 mark. Let's assume he pretty much sold out - so those six dates grossed £5.4m

Assuming he did a 20 song set (so maybe 75 minutes duration for songs, with two support acts each playing 30 minutes - total duration 135 minutes) then the songwriters (for both Bieber and support acts) are getting £1200 per minute of performance across that segment of the tour. So actually, if you are the support act and you are a singer-songwriter playing 30 minutes support to Bieber, you're going to walk away with your live appearance fees plus £36k in songwriter royalties.

Streaming revenue splits between labels and songwriters (or sound recording copyright royalties, and publishing mechanical royalties) are based on old record label models, where the label invested a large amount of money to record, manufacture and market product; because of this, they took the lion's share of revenues from record music sales. It's easy to argue that things have changed, but equally, generally speaking a songwriter needs an artist to perform and record the song - and the artist probably needs a label (or someone with some money) to market that song and help it generate the maximum revenues. Songwriters still benefit, because they get MORE revenues than they would have done otherwise. A great song is nothing unless someone records it and performs it.

So the problem is not necessarily with Pandora, Spotify, YouTube and all of these other companies - they are following models which by-and-large have been dictated to them by labels - you can't operate a music streaming platform without songs to play, and you can't play songs without obtaining permission to use the recording, and the recording copyright - and thus that permission - is controlled by record labels rather than songwriters.

The scale of the market is completely different. Bieber's 2016 world tour apparently grossed $250m in ticket sales - if we stick (for ease) with the UK model for compensating songwriters for live performance, this tour generated $7.5m in revenues for songwriters. Let's say that across the whole tour - including Bieber songs, numerous co-writes, and support acts - there were 250 songwriters involved. Assuming everyone's song was performed for roughly the same duration then each songwriter should have walked away with about $37,500. Not bad.

The problem is not streaming - it's people crafting flawed narrative that is based around "my song got streamed a billion times and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" but at the same time ignoring the completely different scales of revenue for live performance vs recording. Bieber has 32 million monthly listeners on Spotify. Assuming that they each listen to an average of 8 tracks a month (for a total of roughly 250m streams) then his label is generating maybe around $1.25m in recording revenues. The songwriters will be getting a fraction of that - and each individual songwriter will get a proportion of that fraction, based on how much their song is listened to. If his most popular song gets 50% of streaming activity, second most popular 25%, third most popular 10%... and his tenth most popular gets 1% then that track is only generating the label $12,500 a month - and maybe $2,500 for the song writer - but it's still getting 2.5m streams a month. If the writer has a 20% share of the song, then they are getting $500 - over a year (all things remaining equal) then maybe they get $6,000 for 30m streams.

If that song was played on every date of a Bieber tour as part of a 20 song, 75 minute set, on a tour where headliner is performing 60% of the total duration, then based on the UK model for songwriter performance royalties the writer of that song would be getting $225,000.

If someone has a 20% share of that song they are getting $45,000.

Re: Royalties from Writing a Hit Song with Justin Bieber

#109
post #106
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately for Hacker News, most of that economic windfall goes to middlemen.

Unfortunately, it goes to the labels. The streaming services aren't rolling in the dough.

It also goes to the engineers working on the services. $200,000-$300,000/year to a senior, even if the service itself is losing money (And when it goes bust, you can always find another job.)

Re: Royalties from Writing a Hit Song with Justin Bieber

#110
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of several Communes that worked just fine for 20+ years. What's interesting is not that they die off, but that the form so naturally. To survive they need to be like collage fraternity's and focus on new membership regularly, but naturally occurring Communes don't have that drive out of thin air. Monastic orders for example can be stable over hundreds of years, but to pull that off they need a focus on new mem…

Another thread suggested I check out a long lived commune in the US, so I did. It turns out that it was indeed long lived, but the average member only stayed a year and a half before moving on. The larger point is, in America, anyone can form a commune or choose to live in one. There's no law against it. What you don't get to do is force people to join and prevent them from leaving. There seem to be orders of magnitu…

Interesting, I would simply be cautious that publicity is not sought out by many communities. Also, people can have significant financial incentives for these places to break apart so communal property may be sold off.

PS: I am not personally interested in living on one. However, I do know people who have for ~30 years and see a host of upsides and downsides.

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