Earlier quoted context omitted.
I really don't think so. I don't think persons of color not want to be constantly assailed with racism online fall into that category. Women not wanting to be assailed with death and rape threats on line don't fall into that category.
In the past I had an account whose handle people would often assume was a woman. I liked to discuss politics and so I'd disagree with people, and I ended up disagreeing with people on the right and the left. The only death and rape threats that account received were from the left.
Freedom of Speech Isn't About Speech
41–50 of 118 posts
Re: Freedom of Speech Isn't About Speech
#42the constitution is a construct of white supremacy. abolish now. impeach now. flag this post now. all republicans and conservatives are nazis. everyone who disagrees with me is hitler and must be silenced before people hear them, because I am the sole arbiter of virtue.
We've banned this throwaway as well as the main account.
Re: Freedom of Speech Isn't About Speech
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are operating/arguing from the neutral reality perspective-- that is to say, that "we as a society" exists as a concrete entity that can pass laws. But that's not the case. We are not the government, far from it. The government is a collection of people who have power over us. Many of them are corrupt and will do evil-- just imagine the worse member of the political party you disagree with as a dictator. Every ti…
> Any limitations, as we have seen, on human rights become the camel nose under the tent, and then you eventually end up with government violating the right wholesale. (eg: secret courts and secret rulings, National Security Letters an the like, illegal surveillance and wiretapping.) Free speech in Canada does not allow for hate speech or inciting violence, and we're at least no worse than the USA for whatever violat…
Re: Freedom of Speech Isn't About Speech
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You misunderstand me. I thought it was clear that I was talking about ideas, not threats or inciting mobs. And who decides what's an "idea" and what's "threats or inciting mobs"? Would you be happy for the British government to say that of course the colonists have the right to free speech, but many of them are advocating threats and inciting mobs, which isn't allowed? Or for the king of Thailand to say the same th…
Oh the other hand what about, Milo pushing his followers to send Leslie Jones racist imagery and slurs on Twitter? Is that an idea, or inciting a mob?
Re: Freedom of Speech Isn't About Speech
#45I think a common failure (intentional or not) in discussing free speech is isolating free speech absolutism from the sort of free speech that we'd be happy to accept in a liberal, open society. Speaking practically and from the absolutist perspective, there should be no legal penalty for inciting others to violence. However, I think that (nearly) all of us recognize the importance of motive in cases -- we rightfully…
Popper was talking about a last resort, not something which should be applied as a blanket policy of suppression of "unacceptable" viewpoints.
This gross misreading of Popper's thoughts on free speech was popularized by a cartoon which went flying around social media after Charlottesville. But here's what he actually said on the subject:
> I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise.
Re: Freedom of Speech Isn't About Speech
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
I really don't think so. I don't think persons of color not want to be constantly assailed with racism online fall into that category. Women not wanting to be assailed with death and rape threats on line don't fall into that category.
It's fine for people to not want to read things online. What's not fine is giving them the power to prevent those things from being written.
And while we're on the subject of preventing speech, realize that, if you're of the mind that we should allow those things, you're not preventing speech from being silenced. You're just changing the speech that is silenced. Someone who is constantly bombarded with racism or violent threats online is less likely to contribute their voice to conversation.
Re: Freedom of Speech Isn't About Speech
#47This is spot on. Most people who are calling for censorship don't have an ideological backing behind their stance and just want to violently shut their opponents up, while somehow believing they are righteous.
I really don't think so. I don't think persons of color not want to be constantly assailed with racism online fall into that category. Women not wanting to be assailed with death and rape threats on line don't fall into that category.
Re: Freedom of Speech Isn't About Speech
#48... without government interference. However, it is fully within the rights of the audience to condone, chastise, avoid, and laugh at the speaker.
To prohibit the audience from that reaction would be to suppress their free speech.
Freedom of association also requires that a group be able to prevent speech in the context of a group assembly.
"Who decides what to censor?"
Who is calling for government censorship of which expression? This essay sounds like a completely different discussion on free speech than what I am used to hearing, and I don't understand the context.
"If you ask, “Who should decide which ideas you may hear or read?”, people boggle."
Most people don't seem to boggle about porn filters or automatic spam rejection. The books "Ulysses", "Lady Chatterley's Lover", and "Memoirs of Hecate County" were once banned in the US.
While I don't agree with those bans, I bring it up to point out that people don't always boggle.
"So we ban Mein Kampf."
Who is proposing that we ban it? I understand that it's rhetorical, but it doesn't sound like a serious example of anything in the current discourse.
As I understand it, the question is, should organizations like a public university have some ability to override a student group which has selected a contentious external speaker to speak, given that the event uses university subsidized facilities and security staff.
That's hardly calling for a ban on Mein Kampf.
Re: Freedom of Speech Isn't About Speech
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
You misunderstand me. I thought it was clear that I was talking about ideas, not threats or inciting mobs. You'll have a hard time finding any self-described free speech absolutist who thinks those should be permitted.
I understood you, but I think that you conflated freedom of conscience with freedom of speech. Freedom of conscience seems pretty uncontroversial, and it's what Paine is talking about in the quote you gave (on my interpretation). I think everybody agrees that freedom of conscience is both good and necessary in an open society. However, it's incorrect to think that absolute freedom of speech necessarily follows. > You…
Re: Freedom of Speech Isn't About Speech
#50I think a common failure (intentional or not) in discussing free speech is isolating free speech absolutism from the sort of free speech that we'd be happy to accept in a liberal, open society. Speaking practically and from the absolutist perspective, there should be no legal penalty for inciting others to violence. However, I think that (nearly) all of us recognize the importance of motive in cases -- we rightfully…
You are operating/arguing from the neutral reality perspective-- that is to say, that "we as a society" exists as a concrete entity that can pass laws. But that's not the case. We are not the government, far from it. The government is a collection of people who have power over us. Many of them are corrupt and will do evil-- just imagine the worse member of the political party you disagree with as a dictator. Every ti…
Where I live, they have power over me because the people put them there. We can (and absolutely should) talk about corruption and the erosion of popular rule, but I don't think we should succumb to such a fatalist view.
> While inciting a mob to violence can be considered immoral, it is the violence that is the crime... the action.... not the opinion.
Read my argument again. If inciting a mob to violence is immoral and we accept that the law should reflect that judgement, then it follows that incitement itself should be a crime (and, in fact, is a crime).