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The Land of Lisp

landoflisp.com

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Re: The Land of Lisp

#31

Post by flavio81 »

throwaway7645 wrote: post #6

I've read most of it too, but not sure it shows a lot of lisp's strengths. A lot of the programs I read them over and thought that I could do the same thing in significantly less Python code. I'm not sure what should be fixed if anything though.

that I could do the same thing in significantly less Python code

I have extensive experience with Python and i also know Common Lisp (though i'm far from being an expert there.) You can definitely write more concise code in Lisp. Not only more concise, but also easier to read, although Python is also very good at readability too. (For example, I love the fact that Python allows you to use named parameters, and when I learnt Common Lisp, i sighed with relief upon finding out you can do the same in CL.)

But once you enter the world of macros, is where you realize the possibilities go far beyond what you can do with Python. Not to mention CLOS (the Common Lisp Object System): after reading about CLOS, OOP haters might probably want to embrace OOP again, and OOP fans will get delighted at the enormous possibilities and freedom brought by that object system.

In short, Lisp is a far more powerful language than Python and also allows for more concise code, particularly if your system is complex. However, I should say that Python is far easier to learn and well featured, so that's what I recommend beginners to learn first.

Re: The Land of Lisp

#32

Post by drcode »

flavio81 wrote: post #22

This book is destined to be a classic programming book, just as "The C programming language", "The Little Schemer" or "Operating systems: Design and implementation". I would really like to meet Conrad Barski and give him a great hug. And invite him a good beer. Be sure to read the comic that is on the bottom of the page!! Now, to be honest, a quicker or more practical introduction to Lisp would be the "Practical Comm…

Thanks for the kind words! Glad you enjoyed my book!

Re: The Land of Lisp

#33

Post by tsm »

tempodox wrote: post #19

Nicely explained. On a side note, I noticed with deep satisfaction that “git” is used as some kind of curse in the land of Lisp.

Linus Torvalds: "I'm an egotistical bastard, and I name all my projects after myself. First Linux, now git."

Re: The Land of Lisp

#34

Post by [deleted] »

felideon wrote: post #28
dwringer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A common complaint about Lisp code in general is that programmers tend to write code that is idiosyncratic [ED: I previously used the word "idiomatic" here in reply to the OP but was conflating terms, making this post rather irrelevant but at least it provoked a discussion] (i.e. rather than looking like templated design patterns with standard names, the program is heirarchically built of modules in a domain-specific…

I know what you are saying, but that is not what is meant by idiomatic Lisp. Not by Lispers at least. Non-idiomatic Lisp is typically written by beginners whose code looks more like the language they are accustomed to using previously. For instance, leaning heavily on a procedural style. And not just beginners, but also seasoned programmers that write object oriented Lisp more akin to static OOP. In other words, desi…

[deleted]

Re: The Land of Lisp

#35

Post by hellofunk »

dwringer wrote: post #12
amake wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> seemed quite idiomatic I'm not sure how that would be a bad thing. Did you mean un idiomatic?

A common complaint about Lisp code in general is that programmers tend to write code that is idiosyncratic [ED: I previously used the word "idiomatic" here in reply to the OP but was conflating terms, making this post rather irrelevant but at least it provoked a discussion] (i.e. rather than looking like templated design patterns with standard names, the program is heirarchically built of modules in a domain-specific…

> rather than looking like templated design patterns

Speaking about another lisp, Clojure, it is a goal that each program finds its own design pattern. That's kinda the whole idea. Design patterns can really get in the way, unless your language requires them, which some languages do (i.e. Java where everything must be an object, so OO it is, or Apple's platforms where the MVC pattern is deeply interwoven into all the APIs).

Lisp in general is about exploring a particular problem using only the constraints of that problem, without concern for how different problems get solved. By contrast, design patterns are about forcing a common solution onto a range of different problems.

Re: The Land of Lisp

#36

Post by hellofunk »

Koshkin wrote: post #29
mike_ivanov wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"rather than looking like templated design patterns" - that is, the code goes straight to the point instead of being littered with incidental noise and ceremony? How that could possibly be a bad thing? Well, in certain software development subcultures ceremony might be a norm, but not in general.

From what I have seen, code that "goes straight to the point" is usually poorly thought out, is unmaintanable, has bugs, is difficult to extend to new use-cases, and the developer who wrote it is long gone.

That might be (perhaps) true in other languages, but that is not the point in Lisp.

Re: The Land of Lisp

#37

Post by flavio81 »

drcode wrote: post #32
flavio81 wrote: post #22

This book is destined to be a classic programming book, just as "The C programming language", "The Little Schemer" or "Operating systems: Design and implementation". I would really like to meet Conrad Barski and give him a great hug. And invite him a good beer. Be sure to read the comic that is on the bottom of the page!! Now, to be honest, a quicker or more practical introduction to Lisp would be the "Practical Comm…

Thanks for the kind words! Glad you enjoyed my book!

Hi doctor!

The comic at the bottom of the web page got me laughing and in tears at the same time, in particular the line: "Back in the 80s we showed you how to program without ANY bugs". Also, Java as a little tank, C# as a plane, Python as an helicopter... just brilliant. I almost rolled in the floor laughing by looking at that part of the strip.

Certainly it is prophetic, it seems we're almost reaching the point of being enslaved by bugs...

You're a good man, mr. Lisperati!

"As you know, we're in the 8th year of the Great Northern Wars against the Haskellers (there are rumors that more of our troops are defecting to the other side)!! Don't be tempted to break ranks!"

Re: The Land of Lisp

#38

Post by icantdrive55 »

I'll get hammered for this, but there are better books.

I still haven't figured out if this book is a vanity project written by a bored Doctor, or a sincere attempt to convey information.

I do like the Period Table though.

And maybe it's just me? I have the book on my shelf, and it's dusty.

I do feel using a comic book format to convey technical information is the way to go. It should be used more often.

Re: The Land of Lisp

#40

Post by Vekz »

I was greatly disappointed with this book because none of the 'Game' examples had a graphical interface to them. They are all text based.

Reading further in this thread people are suggesting Realm of Racket as an alternative and it looks like that book has much more visual game examples: https://realmofracket.com/games.html

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