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After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

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Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#31

Post by tdb7893 »

hpcjoe wrote: post #10
tdb7893 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One good thing about a true basic income is that there wouldn't be conditions for receiving it so it would significantly lessen the penalty for working legitimately (obviously there would still be tax reasons to have income you don't need to report). My hope for basic income is that by simplifying how we give aid it can take out much of the ridiculous bureaucracy of it but I'm obviously no expert

The concern I have with this will be inflation. People now have money, sellers can now raise prices. Which eventually gets us right back to where we were. You can give them more money, but then you are accelerating the cycle.

I think that would happen only if basic income means most people stop working. Most people I've met aren't really satisfied to just live around the poverty line to the point where they work multiple full time jobs so there seems to be precedent to believe that you can give a basic income and have people still work. It's not like basic income would be making money out of thin air so it's not like it necessitates inflation

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#32

Post by logfromblammo »

ams6110 wrote: post #9
logfromblammo wrote: post #2

That is so depressing. No wonder suicide rates are up. You know there's a difference between "give a man a fish" and "teach a man to fish", but what do you do when the fish are just gone ? It was mentioned in the article, but not extensively discussed. I think maybe the largest distinct segment of the economy in ex-coalcountry regions is now pharmaceuticals, legal and illegal. There's the legal root and mushroom hunt…

> what do you do when the fish are just gone? Move to where the fish are. The economy isn't terrible everywhere.

Ah, so we should abandon capital investment and revert to nomadic lifestyles, where swarms of people wander the landscape looking for work.

They should be investing in their own caravan carts, rather than paying $300/month for just enough floor to throw down a mattress? Like Roma (Gypsy), Irish Travelers, or hoboes? Yes, those are all cultures valued well by the landowner class.

You can't solve a regional problem by depopulating the region. You'll just end up with the same problems in the neighboring region.

And in the metaphor, the fish are gone. As in extinct. Coal mining is dead. Natural gas extraction and green energy killed it. People still working in the industry are the isopods picking over the carcasses. Eventually, they will get down to the bones, and they too will have to find something else to eat.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#33

Post by fallingfrog »

mmirate wrote: post #11
logfromblammo wrote: post #2

That is so depressing. No wonder suicide rates are up. You know there's a difference between "give a man a fish" and "teach a man to fish", but what do you do when the fish are just gone ? It was mentioned in the article, but not extensively discussed. I think maybe the largest distinct segment of the economy in ex-coalcountry regions is now pharmaceuticals, legal and illegal. There's the legal root and mushroom hunt…

> If all you ever knew is coal mining, that's your condition that prevents you from finding gainful employment. Why can they not expand their knowledge? And if they truly cannot, then ... What productive purpose can we possibly expect them to have? Or in other words: why should we evaluate them as non-negligible?

You know, you should really think about your usage of that word "evaluate". These are people, but you're talking about them in the language that a master might use to discuss the value of a slave- as in, how many dollars do they bring in. What's the value of a bedtime story read to a child? We are all going to die man, life is not about money and profit. Go outside and breathe the fresh air and rethink your life.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#34

Post by throwaway98vs »

forkandwait wrote: post #24

So why can't we invest enough time and money in these people to make them engineers and technicians? Then they might be able to start shops that make and distribute the tourist trinkets mentioned by another poster. Why is the only solution that a large company that someone else creates moves in and provides low skill jobs?

Not. Everyone. Needs. To. Be. An. Engineer. Jesus. Christ.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#35

Post by convolvatron »

javajosh wrote: post #25
hpcjoe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is replicated all over the rust belt. One of the saddest portrayals of this is the photo essay, The Ruins of Detroit[1]. These once mighty economic engines have been silenced: manufacturing, coal, etc. What happens next is that the people who depend upon these industries to make a living, and live ... do less well of a job of this. Some argue that unions would help (they wouldn't), or anti-globalism would stop f…

The good capitalist would say that if a firm moves out of a region, that another firm will happily pounce on all of those experienced, employable workers they left behind! Hiring is hard, so having a big pool of applicants is great! What the good capitalist ignores is the extent to which workers become specialized at the firm, become a cog not shaped correctly for any other firm. Call this lack of fungibility. (It's…

you kind of encompassed this, but more generally what happens when the demand for semi-skilled labor just dries up. there is just no need for these people and their work. not in any geography. not for packaging, painting, sorting, inspection, assembly, or any such task. the quasi equilibrium of the 20th century labor economy is gone.

i don't know what we're going to do with those people, but it seems likely that a lot of those towns will be completely gone in a generation or less.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#36

Post by stevenwoo »

banned1 wrote: post #12
ams6110 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what do you do when the fish are just gone? Move to where the fish are. The economy isn't terrible everywhere.

This is the Hacker News' equivalent comment of "Let them eat cake". I hope things are going well in The Capitol. Where do you suppose they would live? Under a bridge in San Francisco? Unless you are going to host them.

Tangentially related, I do a bit of urban/suburban exploring on paths under overpasses or railroad right of ways and nearly every where I have been in California from San Francisco to San Diego there are homeless people living wherever there is a bit of shade.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#37

Post by monsieurgaufre »

ams6110 wrote: post #9
logfromblammo wrote: post #2

That is so depressing. No wonder suicide rates are up. You know there's a difference between "give a man a fish" and "teach a man to fish", but what do you do when the fish are just gone ? It was mentioned in the article, but not extensively discussed. I think maybe the largest distinct segment of the economy in ex-coalcountry regions is now pharmaceuticals, legal and illegal. There's the legal root and mushroom hunt…

> what do you do when the fish are just gone? Move to where the fish are. The economy isn't terrible everywhere.

Mobility is not the same for everyone for a multitude of reasons.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#38

Post by maxerickson »

hpcjoe wrote: post #8
logfromblammo wrote: post #2

That is so depressing. No wonder suicide rates are up. You know there's a difference between "give a man a fish" and "teach a man to fish", but what do you do when the fish are just gone ? It was mentioned in the article, but not extensively discussed. I think maybe the largest distinct segment of the economy in ex-coalcountry regions is now pharmaceuticals, legal and illegal. There's the legal root and mushroom hunt…

This is replicated all over the rust belt. One of the saddest portrayals of this is the photo essay, The Ruins of Detroit[1]. These once mighty economic engines have been silenced: manufacturing, coal, etc. What happens next is that the people who depend upon these industries to make a living, and live ... do less well of a job of this. Some argue that unions would help (they wouldn't), or anti-globalism would stop f…

Oakland county just to the north of Detroit is one of the wealthiest (93/3100 by per capital income), most educated counties (44% have bachelors or higher; San Francisco is 54%) in the country.

Washtenaw County, just to the west, is also high on both of those measures.

Wayne County (where Detroit is located) is middle of the pack on those measures, not at the bottom.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#39

Post by deadmetheny »

ams6110 wrote: post #9
logfromblammo wrote: post #2

That is so depressing. No wonder suicide rates are up. You know there's a difference between "give a man a fish" and "teach a man to fish", but what do you do when the fish are just gone ? It was mentioned in the article, but not extensively discussed. I think maybe the largest distinct segment of the economy in ex-coalcountry regions is now pharmaceuticals, legal and illegal. There's the legal root and mushroom hunt…

> what do you do when the fish are just gone? Move to where the fish are. The economy isn't terrible everywhere.

I know this is hard for valley drones with no loyalties to comprehend, but not everyone is able or afford to move in the first place, or willing to move even if they could scrape it. Moving is expensive and when the only thing in the world you have is your family and friends, would you just up and give that up? Especially for those who are not in their 20s. And where do you live when you do move, when you have no money to save and you have to struggle to live in a shack with no plumbing or kitchen or bed? "Just move" is not a tenable solution.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#40

Post by mbesto »

forkandwait wrote: post #24

So why can't we invest enough time and money in these people to make them engineers and technicians? Then they might be able to start shops that make and distribute the tourist trinkets mentioned by another poster. Why is the only solution that a large company that someone else creates moves in and provides low skill jobs?

Have you personally ever tried to train a low skilled laborer into something they have little to no experience in or desire to do?

This is the same argument that I've heard from people (mainly young tech workers) that losing 1.5M truck drivers will just require "re-training". The reality that we can simple "turn a knob" and re-train people is extremely myopic.

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