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iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

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Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#201

Post by sigjuice »

josteink wrote: post #171
clouddrover wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi The way I've run every smartphone I've owned is to turn off mobile data, WiFi, and Bluetooth and only turn them on as and when I need them. I prefer it to work that way. The way this works in iOS 11 is now inconsistent and confusing. I can turn mobile data on and off via Control Centre. But, while I can turn WiFi on in Control Centre, I…

> The way this works in iOS 11 is now inconsistent and confusing I really don't see how the apologists can deny this. In iOS every UI control to toggle something on or off toggles things on or off... They all have the same UI presentation, and shows the same affordances, leading the user to expect the same behaviour. And that they have. Everywhere except for wifi. Who in their right mind though this was a good idea?…

When you get on a plane, enabling Airplane Mode should turn off all the radios on an iPhone or iPad. You say flight mode doesn't work, so is this no longer the case?

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#202

Post by dx034 »

panarky wrote: post #14
Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

> No. Yes. It's not just because people forget to turn Wi-Fi back on. Radios are "off-ish" because they remain on for other Apple devices and services, but off for other uses. What actually happens in iOS 11 when you toggle your quick settings to "off" is that the phone will disconnect from Wi-Fi networks and some devices, but remain on for Apple services. Location Services is still enabled, Apple devices (like Apple…

> Yes.

HN audience doesn't represent the typical iphone user. The typical iphone user appreciates privacy but is less concerned about transmitting devices than about the phone bill. I'm sure there are people who always remember switching wifi back on (or have a true unlimited contract) but most (including me) are not part of that. I see why this feature can be viewed as critical but think it'll be an improvement for the vast majority of users.

Ideally, they would've provided a switch in the settings to allow iOS10 behaviour. Maybe they'll bring that with a later version.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#203

Post by icebraining »

josteink wrote: post #179
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This decision seems so fundamentally "anti-Apple". What happened to "it just works"? Heck, they could have even promoted a third option as being super innovative (not like it is, but marketing "Now with 'WiFi Safe Sleep!' or something like that would have been the old Apple way).

> hn_throwaway_99 Is really HN so hostile to statements critical of anything Apple does that you actually need to create a throwaway for it? To me, that seems a bit extreme. Edit: Not so throwaway after all then. Didn't consider checking.

    created: 228 days ago

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#204

Post by benliong78 »

function_seven wrote: post #184
kfriede wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than a hidden feature though. Pressing the wifi button (where you would normally expect it to turn the radio off) literally brings up a text saying "Disconnected from {SSID}"

I'm sure many people would think that message confirms they turned off the WiFi.

Then maybe it should say "Disconnected from {wifi-name}, but we have not turned off wifi completely. This is done so that you can still airdrop and use hotspot and other features. If you want to completely disable wifi, 3D-press on the Wifi button and select {whatever that button is}"

>,<

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#205

Post by coldtea »

codefined wrote: post #11
Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

This change would be absolutely fine to me if it were communicated to the user in any way whatsoever . The fact that I can upgrade and have no idea the behaviour unless I happen to read an EFF blogpost in the few hours it appears on HN isn't acceptable. Note how they even use privacy as one of the main (at least, in my opinion) selling point for Apple devices[0] ("Every Apple product is designed from the ground up to…

>This change would be absolutely fine to me if it were communicated to the user in any way whatsoever.

Well, there IS a strike-over in the icon when you fully disable wifi.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#206

Post by dx034 »

Sniffnoy wrote: post #148
Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

Question: Is there some reason the phone can't have some mode where it automatically determines which of mobile data or WiFi is providing the better connection at the moment, rather than having to manually toggle WiFi on and off as using the internet becomes frustrating?

It does (wifi assist for example) but until the phone has established if the connection works or not, the user already switched it off. When I leave the house I get ~10 sec with wifi but no actual connection. That's long enough for me to notice it but probably not enough for the iphone to detect if Wifi is really not available.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#207

Post by dx034 »

mtgx wrote: post #198
Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

Apparently the "security motivated" have to discover when Apple has completely changed how their apps and settings work, too. Are the "security motivated" also expected to know if iMessage or FaceTime stopped using end-to-end encryption, too? These things should be communicated. Also, all Apple had to do was make it a 3-toggle button instead of a 2-toggle one. Just keep the normal way of turning-off Wi-Fi and add a n…

It was communicated, Apple has a page on that. It just wasn't a big part of the announcement. And the tech press covered it well enough so that it's hard to argue that users didn't know about it (at least those who are interested).

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#208

Post by Pyxl101 »

IBM wrote: post #154
jonahx wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. I'm honestly confused... Do you really believe that most users have distinct concepts in their mental model for "wifi off" and "disconnected from a network"? They look at the button, it's not blue anymore, it's off. Then later they think... "Wait how did this randomly turn on again?" I believe this will be the experience even of the majorit…

Most users when turning "off" Wi-Fi, particularly from the control center, are doing so to get them off whatever network they're on. What their mental model is for what "Wi-Fi off" is doesn't matter because the user shouldn't be responsible for managing the radios in their phone. And any of them that do try to are probably under the impression that it saves them battery life, when it actually doesn't (unless connecte…

I will concede that I almost always used the "bluetooth off" button in order to disconnect my current bluetooth device. I did this because it was faster and more convenient than going into the Settings menu and disconnecting that device specifically. It's fewer clicks this way.

So if most iPhone users are using these buttons to disconnect from their current network, or to disconnect the current bluetooth device, then I understand why they'd change them to have that meaning.

Disconnecting from the current wifi network or disconnecting the current bluetooth device probably comes up somewhat frequently as a task the user wants to accomplish, whereas actually disabling the radios likely does not come up much at all outside of airplane mode. So I get what Apple is doing. I wonder why they chose to maintain the button UI though. Perhaps it's because people are expecting it, and are used to it?

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#209

Post by dx034 »

cassowary wrote: post #168
lathiat wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a generally well educated person in both security, radios, etc. I can tell you that the control Centre Wi-Fi is basically always used by me to disconnect from the current network. And it persistently infuriated me when I would later forget and was on mobile data. I can also see users frequently being confused by things like their Apple Pencil not working. I love this change. You can still turn it off properly in…

Hi Lathiat. Why do you need to disconnect from the current network? I can think of many alternatively implementations which would meet most requirements that have been proposed, like turning the wifi back on when the battery is charging or at 5am. All the proposals involve compromises, but it seems much easier to make a notice that clearly says "Wifi will reconnect at 5am" then to say "Wifi is still using your batter…

Not who you asked but: Public wifis tend to stop working if too many users log in. For me that frequently happens at airports. They still broadcast and pretend to have a connection but no throughput. So switching it off is the only solution. When I then go somewhere else (esp abroad), I'd still like to join the next wifi. Having it switched off for the rest of the day can be very expensive.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#210

Post by icebraining »

josteink wrote: post #176
raimue wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see how this is now suddenly perceived as an issue with iOS 11, while Android already introduced the same behavior with 4.3 in 2013. The "off" setting these days only indicates that the device will not associate with any WiFi network, but it keeps the radio on for location services. Without commenting whether this is actually bad for security, articles on the matter should point out that Android…

> It is interesting to see how this is now suddenly perceived as an issue with iOS 11, while Android already introduced the same behavior with 4.3 in 2013. > The "off" setting these days only indicates that the device will not associate with any WiFi network, but it keeps the radio on for location services. That's not true. This is provenly and factually false. On All Android devices I've had (and I've had all versio…

In the Advanced Settings, there's an option called "Scanning always available - Let Google's location service and other apps scan for networks, even when Wi-Fi is off".

As far as I know, the feature came disabled by default, and Android asked you the first time you turned off Wi-Fi if you wanted it on, so it's not really the same as iOS. On the other hand, some people have complained that upgrading to Android 6 has turned it on for them, but that might have been a bug.

In any case, this is a passive scan, it didn't connect you again after you moved places or during the night.

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