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iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

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Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#131

Post by musage »

morganvachon wrote: post #74
jonahx wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money... Naked apologism. So unthoughtful, and delivered with such a righteous tone. If this was their intention, they could have implemented the feature honestly, informing users about what was happening, and offering a clear choice, such as an immediate popup, between "turn off for this location" and "turn off completely." That would have been fine. But the exis…

"offering the option to actually turn the services off." I'm not getting into the rest of your discussion, but I think you completely missed that you can indeed actually turn them off via 3D touch. Even on non-3D touch devices like the iPad mini, you can get to the "actually off" toggles by long-pressing the icons. Sure, it's somewhat of an extra step, but it's misleading to claim that the option doesn't exist when i…

The obvious result is hidden under non-obvious action, and pointing that out isn't being misleading, quite the opposite. And you managed to equate the "offering a clear choice" present in the actual comment into "offering the option" as in not making it technically impossible. They're not equal.

> It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.'

-- You Know Who

And that's not "offering" the plans, is it? When I ask you if you want a piece of chewing gum, I'm offering you a piece of chewing gum. If I have some chewing gum in my pocket and it's possible for someone -- not everybody, just someone -- to overpower me, that's not quite the same as offering. And yes, that's an extreme example, Apple isn't hiding the option on a planet full of killer robots in another galaxy. But it's also not quite "offering" it.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#132

Post by cassowary »

nkristoffersen wrote: post #96
egypturnash wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a phone that is 3D Touch capable and I never use 3D Touch at all . In fact I mostly avoid using it; it's Those Useless Options That Sometimes Pop Up If I Press Too hard On A Thing. It's on par with OSX's "some menu items change if you hold down alt while they're open" behavior. Aggressively obscured.

You're missing out. 3D Touch is pretty powerful and provides access to more than "Useless Options" now.

How do I know when I can use it? and if my phone doesn't have 3D Touch, how can I access the same features? (I don't know if my phone has 3D Touch, but I guess it doesn't because I've never been able to make it do something different. Except once when I long clicked the control centre and it did something different. I don't know if that's 3D Touch though. My iPhone used to teach me how to use it, now it just hides things because it makes someone else feel like an elegant designer.)

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#133

Post by jonahx »

IBM wrote: post #124
beager wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how dumping documentation for a cryptic feature at such an unfriendly URL counts as "informing".

The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. This support document explains the change and how it all works in-depth for anyone who will actually care to know (everyone who reads HN or tech blogs and pretty much no one else).

> The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network.

I'm honestly confused... Do you really believe that most users have distinct concepts in their mental model for "wifi off" and "disconnected from a network"? They look at the button, it's not blue anymore, it's off. Then later they think... "Wait how did this randomly turn on again?" I believe this will be the experience even of the majority of tech savvy users, let alone typical ones.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#134

Post by Operyl »

rileytg wrote: post #7

my airpods disconnect when i turn bluetooth off from control center. very weird that’s not an exception...

They probably made this exception because unlike the pencil or watch, this is something that “takes control” of a system component (your audio output). It likely made more sense to disconnect them in this case.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#135

Post by jsjohnst »

Nition wrote: post #116
jwong_ wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't turn off your LTE radio though...

But djrogers was saying that if I had WiFi on it'd save power because LTE would be off. Surely they only mean the data component? I thought the basic mobile connection was active all the time (unless there was no signal). Are you saying if I turn WiFi on, and I receive an SMS (not through iMessage) or a phone call, it's actually coming through WiFi and the mobile connection is totally off? Surely not.

It’s possible, depending on your carrier, that it uses Wi-Fi for calls, but doubt that’s what he meant. Either way, in your specific use case, I agree, turning off Wi-Fi would save power, I just don’t believe it’s 2x difference though.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#136

Post by victorhooi »

Nition wrote: post #62
wildmusings wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way I've run every smartphone I've owned is to turn off mobile data, WiFi, and Bluetooth and only turn them on as and when I need them Okay, but you have to accept that this is a ridiculously small minority use case.

For the record that's how I do it too. Saves lots of battery and I'm not actively using the phone that frequently.

Are you actually sure it affects battery life that much?

I'm a bit dubious about this - in fact, turning off WiFi would actually harm battery life, surely, compared to LTE?

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#137

Post by drivingmenuts »

MBCook wrote: post #15
codefined wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This change would be absolutely fine to me if it were communicated to the user in any way whatsoever . The fact that I can upgrade and have no idea the behaviour unless I happen to read an EFF blogpost in the few hours it appears on HN isn't acceptable. Note how they even use privacy as one of the main (at least, in my opinion) selling point for Apple devices[0] ("Every Apple product is designed from the ground up to…

It IS communicated. If you just pull up control center and tap the button is says “Disconnected from ‘WiFiNetwork’”. If you expand the panel with 3D Touch or a long press under the WiFi icon it either says WiFiName or Not Connected. On the other hand the cellular radio says Off if you toggle it. This isn’t completely hidden. The information is there. And I agree with the other posters that this is a far better settin…

> At this point I’m not sure there’s a need for normal users to actually turn off Wi-Fi.

Battery life, esp. if the battery is low and you need to ensure you'll be able to use it until you can get to a charger.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#138

Post by Nition »

jsjohnst wrote: post #135
Nition wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But djrogers was saying that if I had WiFi on it'd save power because LTE would be off. Surely they only mean the data component? I thought the basic mobile connection was active all the time (unless there was no signal). Are you saying if I turn WiFi on, and I receive an SMS (not through iMessage) or a phone call, it's actually coming through WiFi and the mobile connection is totally off? Surely not.

It’s possible, depending on your carrier, that it uses Wi-Fi for calls, but doubt that’s what he meant. Either way, in your specific use case, I agree, turning off Wi-Fi would save power, I just don’t believe it’s 2x difference though.

I just looked it up and found the official page on Wifi calling[1], but yeah, that option isn't there on my phone.

[1]https://support.apple.com/en-nz/HT203032

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#139

Post by lucaspiller »

vacri wrote: post #88
ryanobjc wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, the old behavior was better for you. I hate to point this out, because it seems pedantic and patronizing, but honestly you might need the reminder, that there are other people out there, and no, they aren't all like you.

Here is a common enough non-techie use-case where this new behaviour is clearly a regression: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15413902

This use case should be solved by enabling the “Wi-Fi Assist” feature (which I believe is on by default) or avoided in the first place by turning off “Auto Join” for these networks - then you don’t even need to toggle WiFi.

In the same vain I regularly visit shopping malls. If I go in the week the WiFi usually works no issue, but at weekends when they are busy it can be very slow, so I usually turn off WiFi. With this feature I can still get location accuracy without using GPS (which saves battery) and don’t need to remember to turn it on when I’m home.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with the feature, but more the UI and feedback surrounding it. Someone else suggested pressing the button shows a pop up asking if you want to disconnect from the network, or turn off WiFi completely.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#140

Post by _jn »

Too wrote: post #123
cdmoyer wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to expand the panel or 3d touch or anything. https://m.imgur.com/SSeZQUC I'll admit that this behavior is what I want 99% of the time, so it also doesn't bother me.

Ehhhhh, so now "disconnected from ssid" + gray wifi-button means "wifi temporarily turned off"? That is not clearly communicated. At all. I do think the new behavior is better for me as a user 99% of the time, but at the same time i also want to know what is happening and how to override it. Silent mode on android shows how to do it correctly, there you get a popup when activating it asking for how long you want it t…

The communication isn't great, but the "off-ish" setting is visually distinct from the true off setting (the latter showing a struck-through icon.)
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