Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

eff.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 342 posts

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#31

Post by jackvalentine »

MBCook wrote: post #27
jackvalentine wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that counts as communicating changes, it seems a bit Hitchhiker's to me. No user should be expected to notice and figure out the changed behavior for something they do that takes half a second, based on that 'communication'. > “But the plans were on display…” > “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” > “That’s the display department.” > “With a flashlight.” > “Ah, well, the lights had…

I meant that the buttons communicate what they do, not the Apple effectively communicated that they changed what they do. That’s all.

I would still disagree with that, but I suppose we’re getting in to circular opinion waste of time territory now...

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#32

Post by mattacular »

new299 wrote: post #24
Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

I just spent a couple of minutes trying to 3D touch to properly disable wifi, then googling how to do this with 3d touch and came up empty. Either it doesn't work that way, or it's well hidden and appears not great in terms of UX. Overall, I agree with you though. I'm personally not clear on the utility of turning off just wifi or just bluetooth. I assume (hope) airplane mode turns everything off. But in any other sc…

There is no way to 3D touch the bluetooth and wireless radios all the way off in iOS11. You have to manually go all the way into settings.app now which takes quite a bit more effort not to mention longer than the old control center

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#33

Post by firloop »

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

I don't believe there's any way to turn off the wifi from Control Center, even with 3D touch. You must flip the toggle in Settings (TFA seems to say the same thing). Happy to be wrong here, I just couldn't figure it out while fiddling with it.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#34

Post by getaclue »

Is it to farfetched to say that this may have lead to a decrease in performance and battery life that I've noticed on my iPhone 7 plus? I mean... the phone feels... sluggish now. I don't know how else to say it.

Interesting time we live in friends.

It seems like you have to observe every application, every update, and monitor everything if you want your software to do what you expect it to do by using it. Passing it down to the user I suppose.

I used to assume that options and controls meant something for the user.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#35

Post by heartbreak »

panarky wrote: post #14
Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

> No. Yes. It's not just because people forget to turn Wi-Fi back on. Radios are "off-ish" because they remain on for other Apple devices and services, but off for other uses. What actually happens in iOS 11 when you toggle your quick settings to "off" is that the phone will disconnect from Wi-Fi networks and some devices, but remain on for Apple services. Location Services is still enabled, Apple devices (like Apple…

I disconnect from Bluetooth daily because my TV soundbar or wife’s car in the driveway picks up my audio output. I’ve never intended that action to disconnect my Apple Watch. iOS 11 is an improvement for me in that regard.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#36

Post by vmarsy »

raimue wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see how this is now suddenly perceived as an issue with iOS 11, while Android already introduced the same behavior with 4.3 in 2013. The "off" setting these days only indicates that the device will not associate with any WiFi network, but it keeps the radio on for location services. Without commenting whether this is actually bad for security, articles on the matter should point out that Android…

In an article[1] about it, it clearly says you can disable it :

>> This isn't going to sit well with everyone, and thankfully Google included a way to disable the feature, it's just a bit hidden.

Settings -> tap on the Wi-Fi -> tap on the menu button in the lower-right hand corner and select "Advanced", Uncheck "Scanning always available"

So sure, it's "a bit hidden" as the article points out, but , at least at the time the article was written, it's possible to disable this.

[1] https://www.cnet.com/how-to/stop-android-4-3-from-always-sca...

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#37

Post by developer2 »

MBCook wrote: post #15
codefined wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This change would be absolutely fine to me if it were communicated to the user in any way whatsoever . The fact that I can upgrade and have no idea the behaviour unless I happen to read an EFF blogpost in the few hours it appears on HN isn't acceptable. Note how they even use privacy as one of the main (at least, in my opinion) selling point for Apple devices[0] ("Every Apple product is designed from the ground up to…

It IS communicated. If you just pull up control center and tap the button is says “Disconnected from ‘WiFiNetwork’”. If you expand the panel with 3D Touch or a long press under the WiFi icon it either says WiFiName or Not Connected. On the other hand the cellular radio says Off if you toggle it. This isn’t completely hidden. The information is there. And I agree with the other posters that this is a far better settin…

>> this is a far better setting considering how many people have run up ridiculous cellular bills because of bad Wi-Fi and forgetting about the setting

>> I’m not sure there’s a need for normal users to actually turn off Wi-Fi. The only real case would be something like airplane mode which already has its own setting

This exactly matches my own opinion. Nearly every single user has no legitimate reason to need to turn off the Wifi adapter (short of Airplane mode). Those who need this functionality (such as dev testing an app whereby Wifi is not available) will know how to fully disable it. The only real argument I'm hearing is this overly sensational concern about privacy. The counterarguments are stretching so far to find any reason to complain about the product, that these are either Android users trying to drum up drama, or coming from legitimate wearers of tinfoil hats.

I'm a professional software developer. I'm intricately aware of the tracking potential from walking around with Wifi enabled. It just DOESN'T MATTER. You're only blocking stores from gathering analytics, if that. Your phone provider (and therefore the government) can already track you by cell towers. If you're the type of person who is so concerned with tracking of your Wifi adapter, you're not worrying about the right things. You need to disable Wifi, Cell network, and bluetooth - and then trust that there's nothing else built in to track you. Anything less means you're not serious about your privacy. Such people should probably not even own a cell phone to begin with.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#38

Post by odammit »

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

Is that really a concern anymore? (Anecdote alert) I roll over several gigs a month that I don’t use ...

This feature has been driving me NUTS because I’m surround by about a 1000 google Starbucks and TCWifi hotspots at home and at work and I connect to them magically and suddenly my phone stops working because I haven’t logged into their service.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#39

Post by davb »

In general, iOS isn’t very friendly to users who favour 3G/4G over WiFi. I’ve got unlimited data on my LTE plan but very shaky WiFi at home. I can’t start an iCloud backup without WiFi and can’t download apps or updates over a certain size. And now WiFi miraculously turns itself back on after I turn it off in Control Center (as I’ve done for some time). If I want it off I’ve got to dig through Settings.

Changing defaults is bad enough, but not giving users a choice to change them back is incredibly frustrating, especially for a device with such a diverse range of users and use cases.

Apple (and Google, in their own way) seem to think they can push users towards a lowest common denominator use case. It just doesn’t work.

Take “Do Not Disturb While Driving” for example, which kept activating when I was taking the train. I don’t drive. I set the option to manual yet it still continued to activate whenever I moved above a certain speed. I feel like the folks at Apple have decided “well, since we all drive, it’s probably true of most people”.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#40

Post by lnguyen »

firloop wrote: post #33
Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

I don't believe there's any way to turn off the wifi from Control Center, even with 3D touch. You must flip the toggle in Settings (TFA seems to say the same thing). Happy to be wrong here, I just couldn't figure it out while fiddling with it.

You can turn on Airplane Mode then turn back on the services you want (except cellular data)
Post reply on HN