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iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

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Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#21

Post by jackvalentine »

MBCook wrote: post #18
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #4

Well this finally explains why Bluetooth kept re-enabling itself seemingly at random after I turned it off in iOS 11... I agree with the EFF on this one, at no time was any of how this works communicated, particularly not the "turns back on at 5 am" quirk. These features aren't inherently bad, but lack of communication is bad.

See my other post in this thread, it is communicated. It’s definitely settle. But it is there.

If that counts as communicating changes, it seems a bit Hitchhiker's to me. No user should be expected to notice and figure out the changed behavior for something they do that takes half a second, based on that 'communication'.

> “But the plans were on display…” > “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” > “That’s the display department.” > “With a flashlight.” > “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” > “So had the stairs.” > “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” > “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#22

Post by userbinator »

In other words, the WiFi actually has 3 states: Off, Idle/disassociated/disconnected, and Connected/Associated. Most people have experienced all 3 states, but it seems Apple is under the impression that users are too stupid to know the difference between them...

The Wi-Fi will turn back full-on if you drive or walk to a new location. And both Wi-Fi and Bluetooth will turn back on at 5:00 AM. This is not clearly explained to users, nor left to them to choose, which makes security-aware users vulnerable as well.

Why 5:00 AM, and why only WiFi when location changes (and how far must the location change? That is not mentioned even on the Apple support page)? This set of conditions reminds me of the decisions taken by aircraft automation systems --- read how the Boeing autothrottle works, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autothrottle#Usage

Of course, the majority of iOS users have nowhere near that ability to memorise how this "automatic wireless control" works, so Apple doesn't bother to make the explanation prominent; which brings me to the next point: Apple products aren't designed for you. They're designed for the user Apple wants, and by not giving any choices to change the behaviour, Apple is gradually "creating an average user" by forcing them into compliance and causing the rest to a different platform.

To continue the analogy, Apple's design has all the complexity of aircraft automation, and works well for the ideal use case, but none of the transparency and predictability, nor the ability to turn it all off and "fly manually" when it fails.

Also, the original item on HN about this, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15297387 , was rather ironically accompanied by this one submitted around roughly the same time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15299165

The security aspect is not just a theoretical one.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#23

Post by dvcrn »

I hate this. I have a ton of wifi hotspots setup in the city, some of them require authentication, some of them don't. I leave work, mount my phone on my bike, "turn off" WiFi and cycle before realizing that nothing (like maps) is updating because I connected to a wifi point that needs authentication, or a point that is now far away because I already cycled by.

While cycling, I reach to my phone and switch it "off" again just to be again connected to some other access point at the next crossing.

I really hope for a setting in the next version so that off means off again.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#24

Post by new299 »

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

I just spent a couple of minutes trying to 3D touch to properly disable wifi, then googling how to do this with 3d touch and came up empty.

Either it doesn't work that way, or it's well hidden and appears not great in terms of UX.

Overall, I agree with you though. I'm personally not clear on the utility of turning off just wifi or just bluetooth. I assume (hope) airplane mode turns everything off. But in any other scenario you're still leaking location and other information.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#25

Post by raimue »

It is interesting to see how this is now suddenly perceived as an issue with iOS 11, while Android already introduced the same behavior with 4.3 in 2013.

The "off" setting these days only indicates that the device will not associate with any WiFi network, but it keeps the radio on for location services.

Without commenting whether this is actually bad for security, articles on the matter should point out that Android phones are doing the same to raise awareness.

Edit: iOS enables WiFi on switching location, but re-enabling WiFi based on known locations is only a new feature of Android 8 Oreo. So for most Android users WiFi will at least not be turned back on automatically yet.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#26

Post by jamesrcole »

userbinator wrote: post #22

In other words, the WiFi actually has 3 states: Off, Idle/disassociated/disconnected, and Connected/Associated. Most people have experienced all 3 states, but it seems Apple is under the impression that users are too stupid to know the difference between them... The Wi-Fi will turn back full-on if you drive or walk to a new location. And both Wi-Fi and Bluetooth will turn back on at 5:00 AM. This is not clearly expla…

[EDIT: to all the people downvoting this, what do you think is incorrect about either of the two points I made?]

> the WiFi actually has 3 states: ... Most people have experienced all 3 states, but it seems Apple is under the impression that users are too stupid to know the difference between them.

...

Of course, the majority of iOS users have nowhere near that ability to memorise how this "automatic wireleas control" works

Hypocrisy much? It sounds like you're trying to seize any opportunity you can to bash Apple.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#27

Post by MBCook »

jackvalentine wrote: post #21
MBCook wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my other post in this thread, it is communicated. It’s definitely settle. But it is there.

If that counts as communicating changes, it seems a bit Hitchhiker's to me. No user should be expected to notice and figure out the changed behavior for something they do that takes half a second, based on that 'communication'. > “But the plans were on display…” > “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” > “That’s the display department.” > “With a flashlight.” > “Ah, well, the lights had…

I meant that the buttons communicate what they do, not the Apple effectively communicated that they changed what they do.

That’s all.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#28

Post by [deleted] »

MBCook wrote: post #15
codefined wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This change would be absolutely fine to me if it were communicated to the user in any way whatsoever . The fact that I can upgrade and have no idea the behaviour unless I happen to read an EFF blogpost in the few hours it appears on HN isn't acceptable. Note how they even use privacy as one of the main (at least, in my opinion) selling point for Apple devices[0] ("Every Apple product is designed from the ground up to…

It IS communicated. If you just pull up control center and tap the button is says “Disconnected from ‘WiFiNetwork’”. If you expand the panel with 3D Touch or a long press under the WiFi icon it either says WiFiName or Not Connected. On the other hand the cellular radio says Off if you toggle it. This isn’t completely hidden. The information is there. And I agree with the other posters that this is a far better settin…

[deleted]

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#29

Post by new299 »

dvcrn wrote: post #23

I hate this. I have a ton of wifi hotspots setup in the city, some of them require authentication, some of them don't. I leave work, mount my phone on my bike, "turn off" WiFi and cycle before realizing that nothing (like maps) is updating because I connected to a wifi point that needs authentication, or a point that is now far away because I already cycled by. While cycling, I reach to my phone and switch it "off" a…

Right, I feel like this is a bigger issue than the privacy angle too.

For privacy/security, I feel like it's only really going to help to turn off all radios (airplane mode).

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#30

Post by sumeno »

raimue wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see how this is now suddenly perceived as an issue with iOS 11, while Android already introduced the same behavior with 4.3 in 2013. The "off" setting these days only indicates that the device will not associate with any WiFi network, but it keeps the radio on for location services. Without commenting whether this is actually bad for security, articles on the matter should point out that Android…

That's not the iOS behavior. Toggling "off" just disconnects you from your current network, you will still connect to the next known network you come in contact with.
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