iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security • Hacker News Board

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#11

Post by codefined » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 1:33 AM UTC

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

This change would be absolutely fine to me if it were communicated to the user in any way whatsoever. The fact that I can upgrade and have no idea the behaviour unless I happen to read an EFF blogpost in the few hours it appears on HN isn't acceptable.

Note how they even use privacy as one of the main (at least, in my opinion) selling point for Apple devices[0] ("Every Apple product is designed from the ground up to protect that information.").

[0] https://www.apple.com/uk/privacy/

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#12

Post by kazinator » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 1:34 AM UTC

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

Or it's a jab at the competition.

"So Android spontaneously turns your Wi-Fi off? How silly. Why, you know what? Ours will spontaneously turn on, take that!!"

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#13

Post by panarky » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 1:35 AM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #2

As opposed to Google's dark patterns that make maps unusable with location tracking off.

Google Maps is perfectly usable with location turned off. I often use it this way just to stretch the battery.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#14

Post by panarky » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 1:38 AM UTC

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

> No.

Yes.

It's not just because people forget to turn Wi-Fi back on.

Radios are "off-ish" because they remain on for other Apple devices and services, but off for other uses.

What actually happens in iOS 11 when you toggle your quick settings to "off" is that the phone will disconnect from Wi-Fi networks and some devices, but remain on for Apple services.

Location Services is still enabled, Apple devices (like Apple Watch and Pencil) stay connected, and services such as Handoff and Instant Hotspot stay on.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#15

Post by MBCook » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 1:41 AM UTC

codefined wrote: post #11

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

This change would be absolutely fine to me if it were communicated to the user in any way whatsoever . The fact that I can upgrade and have no idea the behaviour unless I happen to read an EFF blogpost in the few hours it appears on HN isn't acceptable. Note how they even use privacy as one of the main (at least, in my opinion) selling point for Apple devices[0] ("Every Apple product is designed from the ground up to…

It IS communicated.

If you just pull up control center and tap the button is says “Disconnected from ‘WiFiNetwork’”.

If you expand the panel with 3D Touch or a long press under the WiFi icon it either says WiFiName or Not Connected.

On the other hand the cellular radio says Off if you toggle it.

This isn’t completely hidden. The information is there. And I agree with the other posters that this is a far better setting considering how many people have run up ridiculous cellular bills because of bad Wi-Fi and forgetting about the setting.

At this point I’m not sure there’s a need for normal users to actually turn off Wi-Fi. The only real case would be something like airplane mode which already has its own setting.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#16

Post by MBCook » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 1:43 AM UTC

Perceptes wrote: post #10

This has bugged me too since upgrading to iOS 11. I understand the motivation for the change, but it was not necessary to make the UI misleading. It should very clearly indicate between "off" and "off-ish," and allow switching to a true off state, perhaps by long-pressing the icon to get additional options, like how several other control center panels work.

The messages the display at the top of the screen when you tap the icons were the labels below the icons if you expand the panel clearly show whether the radios are off or just disconnected.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#17

Post by zwily » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 1:43 AM UTC

paloaltokid wrote: post #3

Yes, this was a big surprise in iOS 11. I can understand the appeal of making it work this way, but I wish it was implemented as a parallel set of options. Or at least make it configurable in settings of how it should work. I feel the same way about the "Do Not Disturb While Driving" feature. I like the feature a lot, and I've been using it, but I wish it was a parallel feature as well. My "Do Not Disturb" patterns a…

I wish the “Do Not Disturb While Driving” would re-enable itself after the car starts moving again. I lie and tell it I’m not driving all the time at a light to select the next podcast.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#18

Post by MBCook » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 1:44 AM UTC

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #4

Well this finally explains why Bluetooth kept re-enabling itself seemingly at random after I turned it off in iOS 11... I agree with the EFF on this one, at no time was any of how this works communicated, particularly not the "turns back on at 5 am" quirk. These features aren't inherently bad, but lack of communication is bad.

See my other post in this thread, it is communicated.

It’s definitely settle. But it is there.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#19

Post by jackvalentine » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 1:46 AM UTC

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

> It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan

Is there a source for this, or is this your opinion?

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#20

Post by davb » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 1:46 AM UTC

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

> It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan.

Is the solution here not simply to turn off mobile data when you don’t want to use it, if you’re on such a restrictive mobile plan?

The fact is, the behaviour changed in a way that wasn’t made clear at all. That WiFi will reconnect by itself after being off for a period is a security and privacy issue, and is a frustrating change.

Hiding things behind 3D Touch is not very intuitive or user friendly. What was once a toggle - on or off - is now a three state option where one of the stares can only be accessed from the settings app.