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Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news

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Re: Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news

#81
There's a recurring theme in this thread :

> [insert internet company here] did nothing wrong! It's the reader's responsibility to think critically!

Obviously, there's a lot of truth to that. I'm sure everyone here broadly agrees with the concept of personal responsibility. I just don't see how making this blatantly obvious point gets us anywhere. It's like working with a bad colleague who management won't fire. Of course they're failing at their duties, but so what? You're stuck with them. It seems weirdly nihilistic to just accept the situation, instead of trying to improve it by making the colleague suck less.

Personally, I think it's OK to trust experts. We broadly trust doctors, engineers, researchers and lawyers to inform us about their specific fields. Journalism is different, in part because of the 1st amendment : the government can regulate who's qualified to give you legal advice, but not who's qualified to inform you about geopolitics. That's a feature, with some undesirable side effects. My contention is that curated fact checking is an acceptable, if imperfect, way to mitigate those side effects. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but not every opinion is entitled to the front page of Google.

Re: Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news

#82
post #60

Ultimately, the issue is whether we allow freedom of speech or not (or suppressing it severely). Tech is becoming political now, it's going to end up regulated and meaningful advancements will be rare, as they will risk "rocking the boat". That is going to be the most likely result when all major tech companies bow down to "filtering", "censoring", "suppressing" unpopular opinion. Automation would in infinite limit a…

A distinction needs to be made between the Googles and Facebooks of the world, and "tech". In practice, huge corporations love it when they can serve as a proxy for a human rights issue like freedom of speech. But there is no reason that mega-corporations with unimaginable power and increasingly control of the world's information should have the same freedoms that we allow individuals or even smaller companies. To th…

I think the distinction here is not about limiting corporations but about basic human issue of freedom (more specifically of "feeling of freedom"; unlimited freedom is out of reach even for the richest/most powerful humans). As official media are losing their raison d'être, i.e. medial control of population due to alternatives provided by self-inhibited freedom on the Internet, allowing all kinds of ridiculous information to pop up, the usual approach is to inhibit access to unapproved information sources, reinforcing the feeling of having one's freedom attacked via censorship. Word of mouth was always ridiculous, a sewer with a few pearls here and there, it was always there though... Obviously, corporations in favor of "feeling of freedom" would lose a lot where it matters, in popularity. To me it seems like the quality of "story tellers", conjuring believable lies as was the case in the past, went dramatically down and population overcame that paradigm and can't be fooled with them anymore. Trying to shove population back to ancient approaches won't work; new, smarter stories need to be invented for people to believe in. Anyone up to the task?

Re: Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news

#83

I am amazed at how bad this situation is. > Something happens. > /pol/, being /pol/, flipped the switch that generates semi-random information around a subject, seasoned with bias-of-the-day > some posters on /pol/ decide to blame Geary Danley for the Vegas shooting > google indexes /pol/ Given that: > Searches for _words_ yield content related to _words_ > Searches for a name yield content related to a name > Search…

When I awoke the morning after and started searching, I had multiple, often generic searches ("las vegas shooting") that returned 4chan threads in the first page or two. I think the issue is a little more unique and involved than you describe.

Re: Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news

#84
post #69
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird that people are blaming a search engine for providing relative links for discussion on a topic. Again, it's a search engine first and foremost, not a media outlet . It indexes media outlets. It shouldn't be Google's job to vet articles. That should fall on the end user, and this push to hide "fake news" is just asking for more problems down the road.

Exactly, what happens when a credible news source has to _retract_ a need story? Do we crucify Google for surfacing an expost facto false story? It's not Google's job to verify sources of news. Could they algorithmically "guess" a credibility score and attach that to the newslink, sure, I suppose.

> Could they algorithmically "guess" a credibility score and attach that to the newslink, sure, I suppose.

Then why bother with other sources? Just generate a random summary based on the search terms, rank it, and present it to the user if it is credible enough. Repeat as necessary.

Re: Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news

#85

I am amazed at how bad this situation is. > Something happens. > /pol/, being /pol/, flipped the switch that generates semi-random information around a subject, seasoned with bias-of-the-day > some posters on /pol/ decide to blame Geary Danley for the Vegas shooting > google indexes /pol/ Given that: > Searches for _words_ yield content related to _words_ > Searches for a name yield content related to a name > Search…

When I awoke the morning after and started searching, I had multiple, often generic searches ("las vegas shooting") that returned 4chan threads in the first page or two. I think the issue is a little more unique and involved than you describe.

4chan was discussing the issue. People were clicking said results (I can be wrong).

Should google not index 4chan?

Re: Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news

#86

I am amazed at how bad this situation is. > Something happens. > /pol/, being /pol/, flipped the switch that generates semi-random information around a subject, seasoned with bias-of-the-day > some posters on /pol/ decide to blame Geary Danley for the Vegas shooting > google indexes /pol/ Given that: > Searches for _words_ yield content related to _words_ > Searches for a name yield content related to a name > Search…

Situations like these make me really question democracies. If the voting public is so poorly educated that they don't even question the source, that doesnt bode well for the complex problems facing our society.

The whole "fake news" phenomenon is even more disheartening. That the public is getting news from their Facebook or Twitter feed and think that is sufficient speaks to a major failure of our educational system and a lack of development of critical thinking and analysis.

Re: Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news

#87
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do your own research!" is precisely how we wind up with conspiracy theories in the first place.

Critical thinking is a fundamental requirement of an educated electorate. Google and Facebook are culpable, but the news consumer is the problem. If you believe any information put in front of you, we've already lost. EDIT: @mikeash: We don't give up. I just don't know what the solution is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ @projekti: If "it doesn't scale", your only option is to meet with your representatives with a lobbying group, and intr…

Observationally, our society seems to have forgotten that liberties come with responsibilities. It seems that we are unaware that freedom comes with a price, and that price is not a one-time payment, but an ever-present obligation.

We have the right to a free press. Our responsibilities include vetting our information sources, responding to bad press, and providing better press should the existing press fail in its duties.

We have the right of free speech. Our responsibilities include countering dishonest speech, being mindful of our own speech, and defending the right to free speech.

We have the right to bear arms. Our responsibilities include keeping our arms reasonably repaired and secured, being educated in their safe use, and encouraging safe use from others.

The list goes on. To paraphrase a certain superhero, with great rights come great responsibilities. The system appears to fail when people ignore their responsibilities. It seems to fail when we rely on others to fulfill our duties. Every member of that society is obligated to those responsibilities, though shirking their duty has become the norm.

I don't have a solution and I am not a skilled writer, but hopefully this gibberish makes sense.

Re: Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news

#88
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about your first claim but I have found a number of Snopes articles making binary (or qubit) assertions that were very obviously full of grey area or were simply wrong depending on context. The worst offenders were typically politically slanted (as would be expected in any human run system or ideological subject) but not only that as many academic subjects are full of internal debates with varying priori…

> 4chan has had useful research on a number of occasions. Like what?

I believe one antifa member who broke the head of some protester with a bike was identified by 4chan using various interesting and crazy methods. These threads are archived. Police actually admitted using that information and arrested a university teacher (!!!) thanks to that info.

Re: Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news

#89

I mean, I'm all for Google deciding that in the interests of pluralism and avoiding partisanship in its filtering it can't rule out Breitbart, political blogs or even Infowars as news sources, but including a web forum which - quite apart from being an infamous cesspool - doesn't even pretend to be a news source in Google News results?!

Indeed, this is the problem. If their algorithm is so naive that it accepts frickin' 4chan , it's probably going to end up making the wrong decision in the other direction (that a reliable thing is not).

Yes, this this this.

If they can't just rule out an image board famous for trolling, why should I buy all these stories about ai, machine learning and all the buzzwords.

Re: Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news

#90
post #20
post #3

I really don't like the "fact checks" being done by news sites these days - that's your responsibility as a reader, tech can't do it for you. Even more reputable sites like Snopes tend to draw absolutist conclusions about things which I find are certainly not absolute.

> that's your responsibility as a reader I live in Sweden. How do I fact check what happens in a neighborhood in the USA? How do I know that a result of a clinical test is reliable? Do I check it on another on-line source? Do I spend millions on R&D and do my own analysis? Or just few thousands going to Las Vegas and gathering my own data? Or do I need to wait for a Newspaper that actually has fact-checking? > Even m…

You're misrepresenting what the person you're replying to said.

You can check facts the exact same way we've been doing for many years - find corroborating sources, view first hand evidence (and no, you don't need to do this in person), look for analysis from trusted sources etc etc.

Even if a newspaper claims to do fact-checking or is somehow legally obligated to do fact-checking, that's absolutely no guarantee that it's facts are accurate or free from bias.

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