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The Insecure Developer

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Re: The Insecure Developer

#41

Post by FLUX-YOU »

mikekchar wrote: post #11

I'm sleepy, so I shouldn't post, but here goes. Confidence is really important for a programmer. Writing good code is very, very difficult. On the other hand, writing terrible code that barely works is not so difficult. There is a pretty big gulf between the two and if you don't have confidence that you can achieve something better, it is unlikely that you will even look. Having said that, our industry is full of a l…

Your post boils down to "fake it until you make it" because while you criticize the average programmer, you don't realize that the programming industry has significant influence on how it shapes the narratives about programming skill and how people in the industry perceive things that they "need to know".

You guys (people claiming to be the top global 1%) constantly shift practices, frameworks, and career directions and the only reason you've been so successful at it is because you have a loud voice, and haven't actually put any work into having a cohesive voice about how to train and develop programmer careers. That's why you don't have a golden path for early programming careers -- there is no state of the art to practice at because the field is just chaos with its own direction. It's like rolling the dice to find out which level of Math you'll be taking this year. It could be pre-algebra, or it could be calc III. You don't know because the dice roll represents some fashionable trend in the industry.

If you could actually do this work and answer this question, you'd have a class of useful programmers whom you know will be able to work at a particular level in exchange for a fair wage.

If someone wanted to join this class, then it should be very easy for them to figure out what skills they need and what tests they should take to figure out on their own whether they belong. You can then assess them using similar tests.

In a world of "fake it until you make it", yes, you over-inflate your confidence and appearance of skill. You go until someone completely rejects you because why not? There's no legal repercussions since it's up to the business to do its due diligence. If a business is not happy with its hires, it indicates that they still don't have a good hiring process which gives them the signals you need.

Re: The Insecure Developer

#42

Post by marcosdumay »

astura wrote: post #21
mikekchar wrote: post #11

I'm sleepy, so I shouldn't post, but here goes. Confidence is really important for a programmer. Writing good code is very, very difficult. On the other hand, writing terrible code that barely works is not so difficult. There is a pretty big gulf between the two and if you don't have confidence that you can achieve something better, it is unlikely that you will even look. Having said that, our industry is full of a l…

>if you don't have confidence that you can achieve something better, it is unlikely that you will even look. This isn't true. The worst developers I know are also the most confident. They think their code is perfect the first time and they don't need to learn any more because they believe they already know everything there is to know. The more confident they are the worse their quality of work is. Luckily they are fe…

Confidence and hubris are different things. Hubris can come from lack of confidence at least as often as it comes from excess.

Re: The Insecure Developer

#43

Post by golergka »

wtflmaohnisdumb wrote: post #28
golergka wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has hired programmers, I cannot upvote you enough. Last time was less than a month ago. I interviewed everybody from junior to (presumably) almost lead. During that time, I haven't met a single soul who would be able to describe what a call stack is and how it works, in rough terms. I don't have a CS degree, but I would imagine that it is something you would learn in the first year - I was tought it in…

Maybe you're asking the wrong questions or are from an undesirable area. I mean the example question you're using is just trivia and not difficult to learn when a problem arises. I'm not sure how much more you want compared to "local variables, return addresses, parameters" tbh.

> I'm not sure how much more you want compared to "local variables, return addresses, parameters" tbh.

The fact that you include "return addresses" already shows that you understand the concept much better than developers I interviewed.

It's not about knowing the trivia that you can google - it's about knowing that you should google something when you need it.

Re: The Insecure Developer

#44

Post by golergka »

Clubber wrote: post #24
golergka wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has hired programmers, I cannot upvote you enough. Last time was less than a month ago. I interviewed everybody from junior to (presumably) almost lead. During that time, I haven't met a single soul who would be able to describe what a call stack is and how it works, in rough terms. I don't have a CS degree, but I would imagine that it is something you would learn in the first year - I was tought it in…

I had to look it up, once I did, I knew exactly what you were talking about, I just didn't know it by name. I was thinking about the process a request/response goes through via TCP/IP port. I've been doing this for 20 years. Maybe you need to rethink your interview questions. You are just testing for word/definition association which doesn't really matter outside of tech chest pumping. Perhaps explain what a call sta…

Well, I certainly do not just ask "what a call stack is" and then stare at the candidate blankly, if that's the picture you're getting.

Re: The Insecure Developer

#45

Post by CharlesC »

banned1 wrote: post #39
zwieback wrote: post #34

I listened to this podcast where they were trying to figure out why some car salesmen sell 2x or 3x the cars of the next best guy on the lot. They found a pattern where the best performers would maybe briefly celebrate a sale and then immediately think "Oh god, I'll never sell another car, gotta get cracking right away." The less successful guys would go back to their buddies and brag, tell stories and go home early.…

This is super interesting (car sales). I know you have probably a lot of better things to do than answering strangers' questions, but, if you could, would you mind spending 60 seconds trying to find the post and post it here?

I guess he is referring to the this american life episode: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/513/...

Re: The Insecure Developer

#47

Post by Clubber »

golergka wrote: post #44
Clubber wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to look it up, once I did, I knew exactly what you were talking about, I just didn't know it by name. I was thinking about the process a request/response goes through via TCP/IP port. I've been doing this for 20 years. Maybe you need to rethink your interview questions. You are just testing for word/definition association which doesn't really matter outside of tech chest pumping. Perhaps explain what a call sta…

Well, I certainly do not just ask "what a call stack is" and then stare at the candidate blankly, if that's the picture you're getting.

Hah. You'd be surprised at how common that is.

Re: The Insecure Developer

#48

Post by crdoconnor »

mikekchar wrote: post #11

I'm sleepy, so I shouldn't post, but here goes. Confidence is really important for a programmer. Writing good code is very, very difficult. On the other hand, writing terrible code that barely works is not so difficult. There is a pretty big gulf between the two and if you don't have confidence that you can achieve something better, it is unlikely that you will even look. Having said that, our industry is full of a l…

>But here's the catch. "Everybody" is not looking for the average programmer. They are looking for the top 1% of applicants.

IME that's market dependent. One of the reasons I left Singapore was because it was abundantly clear that almost all employers had neither the ability to accurately assess programming talent nor the inclination. They all wanted average drones, cheaper the better.

Moreover, actual competence is routinely confused with the ability to recite algorithms you'll never need to implement, encyclopedic knowledge of obscure APIs or a stint working at a high profile employer.

So yea, in theory most companies want the top 1% of programmers but I'm sure that most wouldn't even recognize them if they saw them.

Re: The Insecure Developer

#49

Post by zwieback »

CharlesC wrote: post #45
banned1 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is super interesting (car sales). I know you have probably a lot of better things to do than answering strangers' questions, but, if you could, would you mind spending 60 seconds trying to find the post and post it here?

I guess he is referring to the this american life episode: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/513/...

Thanks, that's the one I was thinking of

Re: The Insecure Developer

#50

Post by imustbeevil »

news_to_me wrote: post #38
zwieback wrote: post #34

I listened to this podcast where they were trying to figure out why some car salesmen sell 2x or 3x the cars of the next best guy on the lot. They found a pattern where the best performers would maybe briefly celebrate a sale and then immediately think "Oh god, I'll never sell another car, gotta get cracking right away." The less successful guys would go back to their buddies and brag, tell stories and go home early.…

That being said, I'd much rather be the less successful guy than the guy constantly afraid of failure. "Productivity" is only as good as it advances your own personal life goals, and I don't think it should come at the expense of mental wellness.

This is also a form of self selection. If you believe that working hard is not worth what you get from it, you won't do it and someone else will.

The less successful guy would also "rather" be himself than the other guy, because he too believes the other guy must be trading his mental health for his productivity.

The successful guy doesn't see it that way. He's happy when he sells a car, and he's happier when he sells more cars. He spends his whole day doing his job, maybe even does research at home. He still enjoys his time with his family, has whatever hobbies he invests his free time in (presumably also more successfully than the other guy). He gets to retire earlier, and he knows it, and that gives him more motivation to be successful.

It is absolutely tragic that people can have the idea that less success is more happy. Some people feel better working harder and you shouldn't have to attribute some opaque negative consequence to them to feel better about the gap.

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