Productive on six hours of sleep? You’re deluding yourself, expert says • Hacker News Board

Re: Productive on six hours of sleep? You’re deluding yourself, expert says

#231

Post by kixiQu » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 2:43 AM UTC

Obi_Juan_Kenobi wrote: post #177

lutorm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, studies have shown that hunter-gatherer societies spent much less than 40h/week "working" and had more leisure time than we do. It's just recent history that's an anomaly...

What studies? This is the internet, use that fancy hypertext. I'm not very familiar with this particular area, but I do know from books like The Better Angles Of Our Nature (and criticisms thereof) that this is a contentious statement. There are many myths about ancient humans, some that overly indulge in 'savagery' and others that are too idyllic. The evidence for either interpretation is fairly fraught and I'm deep…

Later, in 1996, Ross Sackett performed two distinct meta-analyses to empirically test Sahlin's view. The first of these studies looked at 102 time-allocation studies, and the second one analyzed 207 energy-expenditure studies. Sackett found that adults in foraging and horticultural societies work, on average, about 6.5 hours a day, where as people in agricultural and industrial societies work on average 8.8 hours a day. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer#Common_charact...) Sackett, R. 1996. "Time, energy, and the indolent savage. A quantitative cross-cultural test of the primitive affluence hypothesis". Ph.D. diss., University of California, Angles.

Re: Productive on six hours of sleep? You’re deluding yourself, expert says

#232

Post by taneq » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 2:47 AM UTC

lutorm wrote: post #25

_qbjt wrote: post #17

This is one of the reasons I hate the eight-hour work day. Between that and all of the other shit you have to do in a day (commute, chores, eating, exercise etc.), it seems like there's little to no opportunity to just have a life. I know it sounds like first world problems (people used to work 100 hour weeks), but I think our culture needs to change before we can really put the onus on people to improve their sleepi…

Actually, studies have shown that hunter-gatherer societies spent much less than 40h/week "working" and had more leisure time than we do. It's just recent history that's an anomaly...

Yeah, their leisure time sucked pretty badly though. And they lived a precarious existence with none of the nice things we take for granted. I wouldn't swap.

Re: Productive on six hours of sleep? You’re deluding yourself, expert says

#233

Post by xyrnoble » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 2:48 AM UTC

selectodude wrote: post #211

weirdstuff wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too glib; they've been holding pretty steady at 8 hours, mainly due to regulation. Other work has increased hours, such as in many areas of health care, for example. Many folks also patch together multiple jobs in order to achieve a livable income and can work upwards of 12-16 hour days. I know several, personally. Keynes predicted we'd be down to 3 or 4 hours a day by now, but that never happened due (partly) to the…

How many hours do people work, really, though. If management became more lenient of people going home when the day's work is over, I imagine we would be a lot closer to 4hrs/day.

If my workplace announced that policy I'd just assume they wanted to know how productive I actually was. I would leave on time to signal that I had an appropriate workload.

Re: Productive on six hours of sleep? You’re deluding yourself, expert says

#234

Post by chrismealy » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 3:25 AM UTC

gbrain2 wrote: post #175

komali2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had so much shit that just sucked in my life the first 21 years of it. I always had sinus infections, I would constantly have what my friends and I call "poo-brain," where you just have slug thoughts and can't get your shit in order and your speech might even slur. Depression. Etc. Then I started taking fexofenadine (allegra) and fluticasone (nasonex) every day. After 2 weeks, nearly every problem I had vanished. N…

I actually had the same issue for the first 21 years of my life as well. Doctors gave me all of those those things, fluticasone, zyrtec, etc. I cut gluten out of my life, and basically everything changed. I no longer get 10 sinus infections a year, I don't have to take any allergy medicines, my depression went away, and I can sleep less. All of my doctors told me to take drugs to solve it, but it turns out I am glute…

Same for me, but it was sugar instead of gluten.

Re: Productive on six hours of sleep? You’re deluding yourself, expert says

#235

Post by kamaal » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 3:32 AM UTC

lutorm wrote: post #25

_qbjt wrote: post #17

This is one of the reasons I hate the eight-hour work day. Between that and all of the other shit you have to do in a day (commute, chores, eating, exercise etc.), it seems like there's little to no opportunity to just have a life. I know it sounds like first world problems (people used to work 100 hour weeks), but I think our culture needs to change before we can really put the onus on people to improve their sleepi…

Actually, studies have shown that hunter-gatherer societies spent much less than 40h/week "working" and had more leisure time than we do. It's just recent history that's an anomaly...

>>hunter-gatherer societies spent much less than 40h/week "working"

Looking at it purely in terms for food and survival requires very little energy to get by life. But that comes with its own problems. Actually Hellenistic period in many ways was a far better time to live in than now.

Re: Productive on six hours of sleep? You’re deluding yourself, expert says

#236

Post by mncharity » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 3:48 AM UTC

nroach wrote: post #199

mxuribe wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you all the way! I hear people talk about optimizing one's day to be more productive and "get more done in your day" so often...but honestly, between work, family responsibilities, working out a little in the gym, getting involved in side projects (either "working on the car", or working on side dev project), maybe some civic community involvement, social visits (the occasional beer with a buddy), etc...it j…

Bear in mind that we segment our activity more in "modern" society. For example, in agrarian societies you didn't need to carve out time for exercise. Work was exercise. You also didn't need to carve out time for child care, because children worked alongside adults much of the time. And commuting wasn't really an issue when workplaces and residences were in the same community with minimal geographic separation. It's…

I wonder how VR/AR will change this?

With your four display setup, now perched on your nose, moving between sitting desk, standing desk, and stretching on the floor, means moving a wireless keyboard. And for tasks where phone-like keyboards are good enough, no need for the desk, just wander.

Twitch a finger on a pad, twitch a hand and arm on mouse or controller or knee, or raise your arms and dance. You, not the task, determine your style.

Overlay work, while hanging with children. Or map remote kids, into your virtual world. Helicopter parents, meet drones.

Commuting? Well, I suppose some prefer the village well, to indoor plumbing - it's a chance to socialize, away from family oversight. And I suppose commuting will become more pleasant, as the roads clear out - have you seen video of 1950's highways? ;)

There's a meme, of people blithely living their lives, ignoring the future, not appreciating they will soon be stumbling through the smoking ruins of their city. Perhaps we need its complement. People blithely stumbling through smoking ruins, not appreciating they will soon be living in a city.

Re: Productive on six hours of sleep? You’re deluding yourself, expert says

#237

Post by mncharity » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 3:54 AM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #224

nroach wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind that we segment our activity more in "modern" society. For example, in agrarian societies you didn't need to carve out time for exercise. Work was exercise. You also didn't need to carve out time for child care, because children worked alongside adults much of the time. And commuting wasn't really an issue when workplaces and residences were in the same community with minimal geographic separation. It's…

Once they got old enough, sure. Until then, women typically took care of them. Good luck working alongside an 18 month old.

Yeah, it's like trying to work in an open office, with people repeatedly stopping by with problems, and springing surprise meetings, and... well, maybe not quite that bad? :)

Re: Productive on six hours of sleep? You’re deluding yourself, expert says

#238

Post by rtpg » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 4:06 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #181

Delmania wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automation never results in more leisure. It results in more specialized work and increased workloads. The sentiment expressed in the first line is why I intend to stay working remotely for as long as possible. I hated the fact I saw a drab grey cubicle farm more than my house and family.

Automation has been happening for the last century. And what has happened to work weeks/hours? Oh thats right, they went drastically down.

They went down thanks to major labor laws.

Even now, average working hours in developed nations are above the "legal norm".

Though the automation definitely helped to make it more feasible to work less, there is still a political fight to be had to push the hours down even more.

Re: Productive on six hours of sleep? You’re deluding yourself, expert says

#239

Post by xupybd » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 4:09 AM UTC

nroach wrote: post #199

mxuribe wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you all the way! I hear people talk about optimizing one's day to be more productive and "get more done in your day" so often...but honestly, between work, family responsibilities, working out a little in the gym, getting involved in side projects (either "working on the car", or working on side dev project), maybe some civic community involvement, social visits (the occasional beer with a buddy), etc...it j…

Bear in mind that we segment our activity more in "modern" society. For example, in agrarian societies you didn't need to carve out time for exercise. Work was exercise. You also didn't need to carve out time for child care, because children worked alongside adults much of the time. And commuting wasn't really an issue when workplaces and residences were in the same community with minimal geographic separation. It's…

I think the lack of children working along side adults is a great shame. Not that I'm a fan of child labour but I think there is something that adds to a child's self esteem when they take on responsibilities along side adults. I know they complain and don't often like the labour, but I think it brings a sense of purpose and belonging that many young people seem to lack.

Re: Productive on six hours of sleep? You’re deluding yourself, expert says

#240

Post by ramirez60 » Thu, Oct 05, 2017, 4:23 AM UTC

I can't be alone in being exhausted at these studies. Doctors and Lawyers have spent the better part of the last century working on little to no sleep. Academics too. As an engineer, I would regularly work through little sleep because the process of loading a large project into my head to work on it would take more time than the gains from being more well rested. I'm older now, and no longer work as an engineer. I value my sleep and appreciate how much more I can task-switch on a good nights rest, but the idea that I'm not being productive when I'm grinding through work that has to get done and I'm tired seems an overwritten idea.

I'm not arguing against rest and recharging and clearing your mind. I just don't see what these articles are trying to prove. When I was in college I had several stints of no sleep days to finish projects. Even into my early engineering career, I once billed 40 hours straight. Was I as "productive" per minute for that entire time as if I had slept through 5 nights? No. Would the work have gotten done faster than those 40 hours if I had slept for 8 hours in the middle a few times? No. I had a deadline, and there was nothing getting around the work needing to be done.

The argument seems to be against a constant sprinting mode, which I don't think any company employs. Humans burn out after continuous work for weeks, sometimes months. But a week or 3 of little to no sleep to get through everything you need to? It's worked for a long time. Arguably building up muscle memory while forcing rote things to be learned while on little sleep works. What are we trying to prove by this? That "the man" is out to abuse workers? Of course he is. But did anyone make partner at a law firm by claiming he's going to more productive by working less? If you're goal is work life balance, go ahead. But if you're goal is to excel in a field, then it probably involves some sleep deprivation. PG wrote an article about the reason startups were suited for youth is that you could push through unreasonable hours to crank a lot of life into fewer days.

Sorry for the rant...just wondering if I'm alone in thinking this