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Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

newscientist.com

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Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#61

Post by chopsueyar »

billybob wrote: post #20
yummyfajitas wrote: post #7

The article is seriously flawed, because it completely discounts the possibility that the fast lifestyle is the cause of the pathologies of the poor. It mentions the oft-cited statistic that 2000 calories of junk food is cheaper than 2000 calories of vegetables. The fact is true, but irrelevant; if you are overweight or obese (as most of the poor are), you can reduce your caloric intake and increase food quality for…

Clearly, everyone makes choices, which is why you have inspiring rags-to-riches stories and tragic "how did they go so wrong" stories. But a big part of your environment is your culture. The Indian immigrants in Jersey City, I suspect, still see themselves as Indian, probably grow up in stable families, and are given discipline, role models, encouragement, and expectations of achievement. Surely that makes a bigger d…

Word.

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#62

Post by chopsueyar »

rdtsc wrote: post #57
anamax wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason why they don't have pretty often is because they can't afford abortions. When I lived in such communities, access and cost weren't significant issues. Young girls wanted to have children. They got status and other social rewards for having children. (The sad ones said "a baby has to love me".) They didn't see having children as a cost because, for them, it wasn't.

> Young girls wanted to have children. It has been postulated that American welfare assistantship programs are somewhat to blame. I think it has been discussed here (sorry to repeat it, and for not quoting -- I forgot who mentioned it). Basically the programs to help "single mothers" was created to help widowed mothers support their family. Eventually some women realized that having a baby is not that bad as they can…

What particular case are you referring to, basically?

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#63

Post by chopsueyar »

Am I the only one who read this and thought there is only one way to prove this?

Find several thousand wealthy couples.

Take away their wealth, reducing them to poverty.

Watch them make babies.

Evaluate empirical data.

Maybe we should look at former and current US mortgage brokers over the past decade?

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#64

Post by [deleted] »

jseliger wrote: post #48
todayiamme wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am so sorry that I couldn't get my point across effectively. What I was trying to say was that the idea that such behavior tends to trap people into poverty is a derivative of our genetic code is extremely deterministic. Of course, you're right, but you forget that these are people capable of making a conscious choice. They are people who if given the right resources and understanding can choose otherwise. Perhaps…

What I was trying to say was that the idea that such behavior tends to trap people into poverty is a derivative of our genetic code is extremely deterministic. I think the key word here is "tends:" as far as I know, no evolutionary biologists or psychologists would argue a 1:1 correspondence between these kinds of situations and behavior. But, from both a game theory and evolutionary point of view, the kind of behavi…

[deleted]

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#65

Post by todayiamme »

jseliger wrote: post #48
todayiamme wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am so sorry that I couldn't get my point across effectively. What I was trying to say was that the idea that such behavior tends to trap people into poverty is a derivative of our genetic code is extremely deterministic. Of course, you're right, but you forget that these are people capable of making a conscious choice. They are people who if given the right resources and understanding can choose otherwise. Perhaps…

What I was trying to say was that the idea that such behavior tends to trap people into poverty is a derivative of our genetic code is extremely deterministic. I think the key word here is "tends:" as far as I know, no evolutionary biologists or psychologists would argue a 1:1 correspondence between these kinds of situations and behavior. But, from both a game theory and evolutionary point of view, the kind of behavi…

Thank you for replying.

The article was awesome, and I agree with what you say but try to understand this. I am not disputing the science that the author of the study it is dead on, and this is something really fascinating worth working on. What I am scared of is what happens when 3rd parties come into the mix. When you are in a highly dependent state the words free will often don't exist for you. You might have the freedom of free will but you do not have the liberty to exercise it. Or vice versa. In such a case labels are deadly.

I am afraid that people will use something like this to label people, and those labels more often than not will destroy them. This is an extremely important thing. I am not saying that this research should not happen. In fact, it is critical for our future that such work is done, but it is far more important to make sure that it does not have unintended consequences.

Whenever you need to understand a problem you need to choose different lens. Most people never analyze such things through the most important lens of them all; human emotion. How do you think those kids from the ghetto feel when someone labels them as weak and helpless? When someone automatically assumes that they are doomed? When people implicitly imply in their conversations that they have no future?

I am just asking people to understand that they are humans too. Respect them. They may need our help, but do not judge them or box them into categories. It is true that it makes it easier for us to deal with things, but what about them?

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#66

Post by jdietrich »

I worked for two years as a welfare advisor in one of the poorest towns in the UK. What nobody ever thinks about in this debate is the economic incentives created by our welfare system. In that work, I spoke to numerous young women who were planning on getting pregnant in order to improve their income and get access to better housing.

If you're poor, British and female, having a baby is a good career move. As soon as that child is born, your income effectively doubles. The state pays you more cash benefits, your allowance for rent payments increases significantly and you become eligible for an array of other benefits, starting with a £500 ($770) payment before the birth. You become "in priority need of housing" and therefore gain the legal right to accommodation, jumping the queue for social housing.

Reproducing early may or may not be rational in Darwinian terms, but if you've just left school at sixteen with no qualifications and your community has 20% unemployment, it's certainly economically rational.

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#67

Post by yummyfajitas »

rdtsc wrote: post #60
yummyfajitas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He isn't suggesting people are not concerned by poverty. He is attempting to shut down debate by suggesting that anyone who hasn't actually experienced the phenomenon under discussion is incapable of reasoning about it and is probably irrational. One could make similar statements about any topic: Anytime an article hits Hacker News such as this; that is, with explicit references to astronomy and outer space, I cringe…

Unfortunately, in this case I would agree with the original poster. Your hyperbole doesn't quite work because we are dealing with human experience here. Poverty is not just a lack of money, it is most of all a very powerful internal human experience. There is no words to describe it. Kind of like there is not words to describe effectively what falling in love or dealing with a loved one's death is. Understanding that…

Why do you believe human experience is not amenable to reason and analysis by other humans, but quantum physics is? Shouldn't it be easier to reason about the familiar than the unfamiliar?

In any case, I could make the same argument about different types of human experience, and you'd still reject it. Do you believe that only devout muslims can rationally opine on honor killings, or that only racists can discuss racism?

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#68

Post by todayiamme »

anamax wrote: post #47
todayiamme wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not their fault. Most people simply don't know what bottomless despair is like. Even fewer know what it's like to have no resources whatsoever to deal with it. I sometimes still cry and question why I wasn't born normal like others. It doesn't matter what I know and understand. It doesn't matter what I tell myself. I still feel that stab. I couldn't have imagined what this felt like until I had to go through it,…

> The reason why they don't have pretty often is because they can't afford abortions. When I lived in such communities, access and cost weren't significant issues. Young girls wanted to have children. They got status and other social rewards for having children. (The sad ones said "a baby has to love me".) They didn't see having children as a cost because, for them, it wasn't.

This is extremely off topic but I really need to say this.

>>>When I lived in such communitiesI am happy for you. I know you must have gone through a lot of pain, but it makes me happy that you survived and thrived.

Take care.

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#69

Post by rdtsc »

chopsueyar wrote: post #62
rdtsc wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Young girls wanted to have children. It has been postulated that American welfare assistantship programs are somewhat to blame. I think it has been discussed here (sorry to repeat it, and for not quoting -- I forgot who mentioned it). Basically the programs to help "single mothers" was created to help widowed mothers support their family. Eventually some women realized that having a baby is not that bad as they can…

What particular case are you referring to, basically?

Specific welfare help for "single mothers".

The law was written more with the intent to help widows with small children. But it turned out that many young un-married girls could also just have a baby and take advantage of the same program. At some point having a baby became a good way to get decent welfare assistance.

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#70

Post by rdtsc »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #67
rdtsc wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, in this case I would agree with the original poster. Your hyperbole doesn't quite work because we are dealing with human experience here. Poverty is not just a lack of money, it is most of all a very powerful internal human experience. There is no words to describe it. Kind of like there is not words to describe effectively what falling in love or dealing with a loved one's death is. Understanding that…

Why do you believe human experience is not amenable to reason and analysis by other humans, but quantum physics is? Shouldn't it be easier to reason about the familiar than the unfamiliar? In any case, I could make the same argument about different types of human experience, and you'd still reject it. Do you believe that only devout muslims can rationally opine on honor killings, or that only racists can discuss raci…

It is amenable to reason but only up to a limit. Certainly someone who had the experienced would be more qualified to reason about it.

I would say that is even true for racism and honor killings. Someone who grew up in a muslem country or in the deep south in US will definetly understand better the underlying causes for rampant racism or why honor killings happen.

As for quantum physics, I would take someone's word if I believed they could experience it. I don't think any one can, so that's why anyone that can do the maths is just as good.

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