Live data from Hacker News

Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part

bloomberg.com

121–130 of 143 posts

Re: Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part

#121
post #76
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

App developers agreed to the 30%. Qualcomm agreed to FRAND pricing. But that’s not what they’re charging Apple. They broke an agreement. What Apple is doing doesn’t violate an agreement, whatever you think of it.

And FRAND doesn't mean anything. It just means fair reasonable and non discrimatory. If Qualcomm charges everyone the same then how is this not met.

Just because they charge everyone the same thing doesn’t make it fair or reasonable.

What if they sold their chip for $10 and sold licenses to the necessary patents for $100/unit?

That’s not fair or reasonable. It’s one kind of situation FRAND was designed to prevent.

Re: Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part

#122

Qualcomm's chips have a very bad computer security track record, and their patent-enforced monopoly status makes this a serious problem. If they would go the way of Flash and Acrobat, this would make the world much better off.

Qcom is not a chip company. It is an IP company that happens to make some chips on the side. A majority of their profits are based on their IP portfolio. As a percentage of revenue they spend more on R&D than most Tech companies especially apple. Apple spends less than 5% on R&D. However I am not a fan of their chips. Their chips aren't that great, but its hard to compete with them since you have to use their patents…

This is true. During my internship orientation, they called this out. (100 lawyers in this building make X% of our money, huge X).

Re: Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part

#123
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@sgift: no, there is some definition of what FRAND is. It's just that Apple doesn't like it. In once instance, Apple's own FRAND expert came out testifying against Apple (in a 2012 ITC case involving Samsung and Apple). And no, under FRAND, Qualcomm can refuse license.

> @sgift: no, there is some definition of what FRAND is. There really isn't a clear definition for "fair" or "reasonable", which is why this ends up in court. > And no, under FRAND, Qualcomm can refuse license. No. That's the "non-discriminatory" part. This one is actually pretty clear.

I'm not sure where you are getting it from, but according to ETSI IPR Guide, Section 1.11 (http://www.etsi.org/images/files/IPR/etsi-guide-on-ipr.pdf):

  The purpose of the ETSI IPR Policy is to facilitate the 
  standards making process within ETSI. In complying with the 
  Policy the Technical Bodies should not become involved in 
  legal discussion on IPR matters. The main characteristics 
  of the Policy can be simplified as follows:

  • Members are fully entitled to hold and benefit from any 
  IPRs which they may own, including the right
  to refuse the granting of licenses.

Sure, let's also look what is allowed and not under FRAND based on Apple's past allegation against FRAND patent holders.

USITC 337-TA-794 (Samsung) http://www.essentialpatentblog.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/...

Apple alleged that Samsung violated FRAND terms in the following ways:

1)

  Apple argues that Samsung was obligated to make an initial 
  offer to Apple of a specific fair and reasonable royalty 
  rate." (p.60)
ITC's finding:

  The evidence on record does not suppmt Apple's position. 
  Apple's witness on ETSI policy and practice testified the 
  ETSI IPR Policy document has "no precise definition ofFRAND" and that 
  it is expected that parties arrive at a FRAND license through 
  negotiation." (p. 60)
Conclusion: Apple's own witness testified that Samsung is under no obligation to make a FRAND "initial offer." Apple and their own expert clearly knew about it.

2)

  Apple also criticizes Samsung's attempt to negotiate a cross-license of 
  both parties' mobile telephone patent portfolios."
ITC's finding:

  We cannot say that Sam sung's offers in this regard are unreasonable.
  The record contains evidence of more than 30 Samsung licenses that 
  cover the '348 and '644 patents. See RX-173C, RX-178C, RX-188, RX-189C, 
  RX-191C, RX-193C to -209C, RX-421C, RX-423C. All of those licenses 
  include a cross-license to the licensee's portfolio. That evidence
  supports a conclusion t~at a portfolio cross-license offer is typical
  in the industry and reasonable. ...

  Apple has offered no evidence to suggest that such portfolio cross-
  licenses are atypical in the industry. 19 In fact, Apple's own witness 
  on ETSI policies affirmed that ETSI anticipates cross-licensing may be 
  part of the process of negotiating a FRAND license between two parties. 
Conclusion: cross-licensing was unfair in the eyes of Apple only, not everyone else. Apple had zero evidence to backup their claims, and their own expertise again came out against it (meaning they clearly knew about the rule).

3)

  Apple also complains that Samsung's offer is unreasonable because [some 
  redacted terms Apple claimed was unreasonable]
ITC's finding:

  Apple's argument lacks merit for several reasons. First, as has been 
  articulated in comments to the Commission from Qualcomm, Ericsson, and 
  Samsung, a FRAND license could encompass a range of reasonable terms. A 
  reasonable cross-license with one competitor may involve a
  balancing payment to Samsung while a reasonable cross-license with 
  another competitor may involve Samsung making a balancing payment. Both 
  types of agreements may be reasonable, depending on the two portfolios 
  at issue and each party's respective volume of sales. F"
Conclusion: this is clearly beyond common sense. Apple is just playing dumb.

I could go on and on and point out Apple's willful ignorance on FRAND. And, yes, Apple's appeal to ignorance or your ridiculous claim that "There really isn't a clear definition for "fair" or "reasonable"," is not much of a sensical arguement.

Re: Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part

#124
post #53
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throughput, expectation of service and number of tables/waiter are very different for coffeeshop/casual diner and place that sells $60 steak. In casual restaurant you can expect one waiter per 8 tables compared to 4 tables/waiter in fine dining place. People easily take 2x time to eat the same amount of food in fine dining place compared to something cheaper. In fine dining place waiters are better trained/educated (…

Agreed and my analogy is imperfect at best. However, assuming I am eating at a fine-dining establishment, why should tips be percentage calculated? Shouldn't the tip amount be the same regardless of whether I order the expensive items on the menu or the (relatively) cheaper ones? Which is basically what Apple's argument boils down to. FWIW, I don't really have a dog in this race (except as an AAPL stockholder I want…

Proportional tipping is much better at aligning the waiters' interests with the restaurant's than a flat tipping model would be; better customers get better service.

Re: Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part

#125
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed and my analogy is imperfect at best. However, assuming I am eating at a fine-dining establishment, why should tips be percentage calculated? Shouldn't the tip amount be the same regardless of whether I order the expensive items on the menu or the (relatively) cheaper ones? Which is basically what Apple's argument boils down to. FWIW, I don't really have a dog in this race (except as an AAPL stockholder I want…

Proportional tipping is much better at aligning the waiters' interests with the restaurant's than a flat tipping model would be; better customers get better service.

In my experience, customers that are friendly and treat the staff like equals get better service.

Re: Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part

#126
post #69
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This story is very Apple vs. QCOM, but I don't care much about this angle really. What I care about is the underlying question: is it ok to charge IPR on value added way outside the scope of the given IP? I don't think so. QCOM does so. Apple is against. So I'm just sympathetic with Apple position in this strong debate and that's it (I'm not even an Apple user). And I don't feel sorry for Apple. I feel sorry for all…

>Apple is against. In this case. Apple has a history of demanding extortionate patent licensing fees for incredibly obvious ideas. You seem to be missing the bigger picture. The attack on Qualcomm is against the company, not the patents. Qualcomm snapdragons are the only competitive ARM chips against Apple's A series. Apple is trying to destroy Qualcomm and monopolize the market. That's not going to help the little g…

I might be able to believe that if Apple were trying to sell the A series chips and compete head-to-head with Qualcomm.

But Apple is not doing that. It is keeping that competitive advantage in house.

Whether you like Apple or not, you have to understand their business model before you criticize it. Apple doesn’t care about competing with component manufacturers. Not even a little bit.

Apple learned this the hard way in the 90s. Don’t compete on price, and don’t compete on specs. Apple happens to be winning on specs right now. The snapdragon procs are not even close to the A-series in performance. But that wasn’t always the case.

This is about maximizing profit. Not about putting anyone out of business.

Re: Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part

#127
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel Infineon has been around quite a while. Apple's lawsuit comes only after Apple as the article correctly notes conspired with Samsung to force the Korean regulators to go after Qualcomm. There are other backdrops, such as the SCOTUS's recent decision not to award damage on entire device willy-nilly (see Samsung vs Apple).

‘Conspired’ to have regulators go after a patent monopolist for not following the terms they agreed to? That’s not a conspiracy.

Hey, don't get mad at me, bro because Bloomberg thinks Apple a crook. That's Bloomberg's wording, not mine. The same article also mentions that JY Lee of Samsung is convicted of corruption in South Korea, having colluded with the previous administration. While there is no conclusive evidence that Samsung paid off KFTC regulators to go after Qualcomm, I wouldn't be too surprised it turns out they did -- my father used to work for the South Korean Intelligent Agency for almost two decades and these things do happen.

Apple is also known to influence and buy politicians to win favors -- see Obama's reversal of Samsung ITC in 2013. In America, this is called "lobbying" and is perfectly legit. It's also rumored that USFTC's lawsuit against Qualcomm was Obama's parting gift to Apple. It looked like Qualcomm's allies (aka, lobbyists) urged Trump to terminate FTC's complaint against Qualcom, but I guess we will have to see how far this administration will allow this to go on.

Re: Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part

#128

It's kind of hilarious to hear Apple bitching that when it marks up its phones a ridiculous $100 for $20 worth of memory, it has to share its $80 profit. Neither of these companies deserves our sympathy. They are two big amoral profit-seeking entities wrestling for money in a way that won't meaningfully affect your life. Whether Apple wins or Qualcomm wins or they split the difference, it's neither justice nor injust…

What can you do with the $20 worth of memory by itself? That $100 "markup" is because it's part of a great whole -- a whole that took millions to engineer and create. It isn't like Apple is just reselling memory chips. I could buy all the raw materials that go into an iPhone, but that doesn't mean that I personally could make an iPhone. I'm glad to pay a premium because I don't have time to build a phone.

Not sure why this is being downvoted. The existence of Apple at all today is exactly because people perceive a value greater than the sum of the cost of parts.

This isn’t a new idea, and people put tens of billions of dollars behind this concept every fiscal quarter.

Re: Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part

#129
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

‘Conspired’ to have regulators go after a patent monopolist for not following the terms they agreed to? That’s not a conspiracy.

Hey, don't get mad at me, bro because Bloomberg thinks Apple a crook. That's Bloomberg's wording, not mine. The same article also mentions that JY Lee of Samsung is convicted of corruption in South Korea, having colluded with the previous administration. While there is no conclusive evidence that Samsung paid off KFTC regulators to go after Qualcomm, I wouldn't be too surprised it turns out they did -- my father used…

Bloomberg is also the publication that claimed Apple had multiple standing ovations at the iPhone X launch event.

There were none. It was REALLY easy to check that. There was a video anyone can watch.

If they misuse it why jot either quote it (to make it clear it’s kind of dubious) or use a correct term?

Re: Apple and Qualcomm’s Billion-Dollar War Over an $18 Part

#130
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> @sgift: no, there is some definition of what FRAND is. There really isn't a clear definition for "fair" or "reasonable", which is why this ends up in court. > And no, under FRAND, Qualcomm can refuse license. No. That's the "non-discriminatory" part. This one is actually pretty clear.

I'm not sure where you are getting it from, but according to ETSI IPR Guide, Section 1.11 ( http://www.etsi.org/images/files/IPR/etsi-guide-on-ipr.pdf ): The purpose of the ETSI IPR Policy is to facilitate the standards making process within ETSI. In complying with the Policy the Technical Bodies should not become involved in legal discussion on IPR matters. The main characteristics of the Policy can be simplified as…

> I'm not sure where you are getting it from, but according to ETSI IPR Guide, Section 1.11

That’s not a definition of FRAND, legal or otherwise. This is a statement of the ESTIs view on IP rights. The only reference to FRAND in that section is at the end, where it talks about non-FRAND IP.

> Conclusion: Apple's own witness testified that Samsung is under no obligation to make a FRAND "initial offer." Apple and their own expert clearly knew about it.

You literally just quoted an expert witness who says that there’s no definition of FRAND in that doc: Apple's witness on ETSI policy and practice testified the ETSI IPR Policy document has "no precise definition of FRAND"

You’ve provided no evidence for your claims about FRAND and I’m very uninterested in discussing whether Apple is playing dumb, because I really don’t care.

Post reply on HN