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Forget Wall Street. M.B.A.s Want to Work for Amazon

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Re: Forget Wall Street. M.B.A.s Want to Work for Amazon

#41

Post by Gracana »

_pmf_ wrote: post #31
1_2__4 wrote: post #20

I’m watching tech companies be more and more infested with these business types. As in, it used to be you’d see technical product managers, but they’re largely MBA types now. Ditto for engineering upper/exec management. Ditto for sales engineering. Ditto for professional services. Ditto for customer support. They churn through technical H1Bs at a shocking rate, treat engineering like shit, and add almost no value bey…

> but because they deliver on short notice - never mind what they’re delivering is garbage - the sales idiots and execs love them to death. You seem bitter that you cannot treat your workplace as an opportunity to experiment with new technologies and pad your resume, and I'm uncomfortable having to tell you this[0], but companies outside the infinite SV investment bubble have to deliver products and not proof-of-conc…

What you've quoted (or any other part of the parent post, for that matter) is not an example of the attitude you are attacking.

Re: Forget Wall Street. M.B.A.s Want to Work for Amazon

#42

Post by sage76 »

ryandrake wrote: post #25

Sigh, looks like this one's going to be the weekly HN MBA Hate Thread™. In defense of the degree: Has it ever occurred to you guys that maybe some (many?) of these people were hackers prior to getting their MBA, and are very competent? Quite a few of my classmates had engineering (including software) backgrounds, and even the ones who had engineering degrees but didn't actually code were still clued in. Why this blan…

> by the way, outside the valley, most companies consider it a plus

Maybe that's why they will never come up with the next Apple/Google/SpaceX/etc.

Every single MBA I have met, without exception, has been extremely good at talking and making presentations. Ask them to do real work, and they will find a million excuses.

Another thing I have noticed, is the kind of people attracted to doing an MBA. They have seen all of Steve Jobs' talks/speeches, talk incessantly about Brand Building and strategy. Ask them to dial for dollars and you get radio silence.

Re: Forget Wall Street. M.B.A.s Want to Work for Amazon

#44

Post by rtpg »

jrs95 wrote: post #10
bousaid wrote: post #8

While I was at Microsoft this summer I learned that the PM position has become highly sought after by MBAs from schools like Duke etc.

Maybe a lot of them just want to live out some sort of Steve Jobs fantasy

Or maybe they want to participate in the tech industry?

Programmers don't have a monopoly on being interested in technology, nor do they have a monopoly on positive contributions in it either.

Re: Forget Wall Street. M.B.A.s Want to Work for Amazon

#45

Post by latencyloser »

bousaid wrote: post #8

While I was at Microsoft this summer I learned that the PM position has become highly sought after by MBAs from schools like Duke etc.

Probably because the salary is comparable to dev, but with potentially a fraction of the work.

I still don't fully understand the PM role here at MSFT. At previous companies I was at, the nearest equivalent of a PM was involved closely with engineering to organize projects, discuss features, etc. Here, they're just in meetings all day and emailing each other rhetorical questions. Having attended many of those meetings, the value-add seems trivial to me.

Maybe their job is actually really demanding and I'm just way off the mark though. It also likely varies from team to team.

Re: Forget Wall Street. M.B.A.s Want to Work for Amazon

#46

Post by ch4s3 »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #37
ryandrake wrote: post #25

Sigh, looks like this one's going to be the weekly HN MBA Hate Thread™. In defense of the degree: Has it ever occurred to you guys that maybe some (many?) of these people were hackers prior to getting their MBA, and are very competent? Quite a few of my classmates had engineering (including software) backgrounds, and even the ones who had engineering degrees but didn't actually code were still clued in. Why this blan…

Look at average earnings of an MBA 10 years out vs average earnings of a CS grad 10 years out and tell me which one is more useful for maximizing one's career options.

I think if you compare across all MBA programs in the US and all CS programs, and account for debt, you'll find that the average CS program has a better return. This is because even shitty MBAs cost a fortune and don't necessarily teach a lot of useful skills, whereas even a shitty CS degree teaches you to program enough to be employable.

Now if you compare a Harvard or Wharton MBA to say a Stanford or MIT CS degree, then you'll probably find that the MBA outperforms by miles. But I think that's because those programs sell a deep network of rich and powerful people. Harvard MBA go off to run large companies, and Stanford PHDs go run research projects. I'm generalizing, but at the top end they're using very different optimization functions.

Re: Forget Wall Street. M.B.A.s Want to Work for Amazon

#47

Post by DamnYuppie »

nugget wrote: post #32
1_2__4 wrote: post #20

I’m watching tech companies be more and more infested with these business types. As in, it used to be you’d see technical product managers, but they’re largely MBA types now. Ditto for engineering upper/exec management. Ditto for sales engineering. Ditto for professional services. Ditto for customer support. They churn through technical H1Bs at a shocking rate, treat engineering like shit, and add almost no value bey…

Doesn't bother me too much. Companies who succumb to this trend will quickly head sideways and eventually become irrelevant, creating more opportunities for startups and new entrants.

I think of it like a parasite. They will extract everything from the host, propagate to several other hosts, and kill it. If you look at it that way it is something we should all actively work to control or cure it as it will continue to wreak devastation upon the whole of the community. That is unless of course you wish to join the parasitic parade yourself.

Re: Forget Wall Street. M.B.A.s Want to Work for Amazon

#48

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

choward wrote: post #36
uptownfunk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us MBA's have also written (and write) code and can also think from a dev mindset. Why all the hate for MBAs on here?

Not to trying to bash your skills but I think that can be part of the problem. It's good that you know how to program and that helps understand technical problems better. But don't think just because you know the problem it means you know the solution. It doesn't mean the solution is trivial and that it should be fixed in a day.

Very true.

Some of my worst managers think they know everything, they think they know how quickly something can be done, when they simply don't.

Many times they are downright disrespectful because they think they know it all.

Re: Forget Wall Street. M.B.A.s Want to Work for Amazon

#49

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

notyourwork wrote: post #34
sp527 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon has developed a public reputation for being an intense environment where employees are generally overworked [0]. Unsurprisingly, (based on conversations with engineers I know there) it varies depending on your team and even geographic location. But, based on the anecdotal data and the reporting that’s been done, it sounds like you can end up really miserable if you get screwed. [0] https://mobile.nytimes.com/2…

You can end up really miserable at any company that has a toxic team. This isn't unique to Amazon. I tend to think companies are on a spectrum where you have a few bad apples, a few exceptionally great teams and a most fall into the average like everywhere else in the world.

Many companies don't have the reputation Amazon does.

Not everything can be explained away with "it can happen everywhere." There's too many stories, cases, and anecdotes about working there to ignore.

Re: Forget Wall Street. M.B.A.s Want to Work for Amazon

#50

Post by bitL »

That would explain some of the stupid things that are going on at Amazon right now - e.g. they are now witch-hunting new sellers to prove they aren't selling counterfeits by disabling their accounts right after they list their first items literally seconds after they do it and then demand all kinds of proof. I was shown an email where Amazon stated: "you might be selling counterfeits" without company selling a single item as a fresh new account (and having reputable suppliers that don't risk supplying counterfeits). To me it seems like ML + MBA fail (ML for identifying risks with too many false positives, MBA for setting up such an insane policy since June)
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