Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#251

Post by _Tev » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 2:58 PM UTC

monort wrote: post #250

_Tev wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will not be able to meaningfully contribute to such military alliance - every state having single fighter jet? Or a few tanks? And if they pool money to form an army - how will be the funding determined? Some states will want more defence, some less, some will prefer naval power, some airpower . . . if those people can't agree on anything to such extent that they want to be entirely separate, how would they agre…

They will cooperate if they have a threat of invasion, they won't cooperate to have a large standing army - and that is a good outcome. For example see mutual defence of Switzerland cantons before federal state.

How will they contribute to NATO then? Your point was that they don't need political alliance to be in a military one, my point is that this is practically impossible.

Also good luck with making an army from nothing just in time before invasion.

Edit: and you are still ignoring weakness of such states on economic level.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#252

Post by monort » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

_Tev wrote: post #251

monort wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will cooperate if they have a threat of invasion, they won't cooperate to have a large standing army - and that is a good outcome. For example see mutual defence of Switzerland cantons before federal state.

How will they contribute to NATO then? Your point was that they don't need political alliance to be in a military one, my point is that this is practically impossible. Also good luck with making an army from nothing just in time before invasion. Edit: and you are still ignoring weakness of such states on economic level.

History shows it was possible in cantons of Switzerland, Habsburgs couldn't conquer them, despite no federal authority. There are still examples of small countries in military alliances today - I don't see what is the problem with contributing.

Economics is not a problem in a modern world with a free trade. Small city-states, that embrace free trade, fare well. There is even an possibility, that trade liberalization leads to political disintegration: https://www.nber.org/papers/w6163

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#253

Post by _Tev » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 11:19 PM UTC

monort wrote: post #252

_Tev wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will they contribute to NATO then? Your point was that they don't need political alliance to be in a military one, my point is that this is practically impossible. Also good luck with making an army from nothing just in time before invasion. Edit: and you are still ignoring weakness of such states on economic level.

History shows it was possible in cantons of Switzerland, Habsburgs couldn't conquer them, despite no federal authority. There are still examples of small countries in military alliances today - I don't see what is the problem with contributing. Economics is not a problem in a modern world with a free trade. Small city-states, that embrace free trade, fare well. There is even an possibility, that trade liberalization…

Imo Switzerland is poor example and free trade cannot be guaranteed for small states in today's world but I guess we will not convince each other in this limited debate . .. Let's agree to disagree.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#254

Post by dgut » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 11:47 PM UTC

gjjrfcbugxbhf wrote: post #246

dgut wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was eons ago under completely different circumstances. Spain is a democracy, Norway-Sweden was not.

Norway came to be controlled by Denmark then Sweden by the same type of historic accident as the Catalans by Spain. Norway was lucky enough to take the chance at independence 100 years ago. Why should the Catalans not have the same opportunity to control their own future if they do wish?

Apples and oranges. Norway (a composite of smaller kingdoms) was a "nation" prior to that, Catalonia has never been a nation. Norway-Denmark were a voluntary real union, and Norway-Sweden a forced personal union.

Barcelona did conquer the areas around itself (Catalonia) and later merged through marriage with Aragon, becoming essentially the greater Crown of Aragon (Aragon+Catalonia). Then merged with Castille through marriage and whatnot.

Where are we going to draw the lines, and at what point in history do we conclude the Spanish indeed conquered Catalonia?

The formation of the modern European states are fussy, but the current nationalist narratives are built on very thin air.