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Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

theatlantic.com

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Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#161

Post by OCASM »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #34
davidjsevans wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence do you have that gender parity in tech (I assume you mean engineering roles) is good and/or natural? The scientific evidence seems to suggest to me that widespread gender disparity in many fields is natural.

I would like to see that evidence, thanks. Edit: specifically I would like to see evidence that 1) a behavioral trait occurs in one gender identity that is universal across the majority of human culture to eliminate cultural bias, 2) that this trait has a causative effect on the career prospects of that person again across the majority of human culture to avoid culture bias (also that when this trait is strong in a g…

Sex differences in personality are exhibited in other primates as well. That rules out culture as the sole generator of them.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#162

Post by throwaway4945 »

pjc50 wrote: post #78
trgv wrote: post #11

I think there's already too much filtering. People need to make up their own minds regarding what is true and what isn't, what's worth their time and what's bullshit, which links to click on and which to avoid. If people can't handle this then we need to spend more money on education, or just accept that some people disagree with us. I don't think aggressively filtering "untrustworthy" content will lead to a net bene…

I think at this stage it's like insisting that people filter their own water when there are organisations out there actively dumping toxic waste into it. It's not just the Internet though, it's organisations like Infowars who are out there claiming that the Vegas shooting was some kind of "false flag", after his previous disinformation on the Sandy Hook incident.

I believe your metaphor is falling short. Taken to the opposite extreme, censorship would be giving the people clean water? Or are we about to make claims about "absolute truth" in breaking news?

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#163

Post by hypersoar »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #112
pjc50 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which facts? The very selection of relevance itself tells a story. However, you can sort of get this if you limit yourself to "agency" news, ie AP or Reuters. If you have a big chunk of money and news is important in your work, you'll have a Bloomberg terminal.

All of them? Maybe I'm naïve, but I don't buy the inherent importance of doing selection. If I could trust that the news source includes all relevant facts they encounter, it'll be enough; I can reach my own conclusions. > However, you can sort of get this if you limit yourself to "agency" news, ie AP or Reuters. I've heard something about "wire services" before, but I'm not sure if there are any accessible to indivi…

> All of them? Maybe I'm naïve, but I don't buy the inherent importance of doing selection. If I could trust that the news source includes all relevant facts they encounter, it'll be enough; I can reach my own conclusions.

The problem with this thinking is right there in the word "relevant". What's relevant? The name of the shooter? Maybe he had a history with someone in the band? What high schools did they go to? What were their job histories? Where have they lived? What weapons did the shooter use? Are they easy to obtain? Were they legal? Why or why not? Guns can be more or less effective depending on the conditions. What was the weather like? Was it normal weather for Las Vegas at this time of year? Is it ever bad enough to be a concern?

Somebody always chooses what is and isn't relevant. There is no such thing as a complete, ""unbiased"" catalog of all the facts.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#164

Post by electricEmu »

partisan wrote: post #81
electricEmu wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You've simply restated the problem. Why not contribute to the discussion? I'm sorry, but I've already asked a direct question and do not consider it a restatement of the problem.

It really would be a better exercise for you to think through how you would actually hold them accountable. What service do they provide, concretely? What are their SLAs? What does your contract with them say? Every service is a contract between a service provider and a paying customer. There is a specific set of parameters the service provider must adhere to. What would a contract with Facebook or Google and their n…

I see you've asked another series of questions without answering the one posed. In many respects, this might be seen as changing the conversation to something within your realm instead of answering a question.

> Really would be a better exercise for you to think through how you would actually hold them accountable.

In short, the questions you've posed range from "bring your life experiences together" and "think through the specifics". I have, and my thoughts remain unchanged.

Posing that many questions across such a broad range of subjects and varying levels of specificity might be seen as a disengenious way to continue the conversation.

I have posed a straightforward question. Instead of an answer, I've received only other "thought provoking" questions. In response, that's how I arrived at my question to you, two responses ago.

In the future, you might find better dialogue by answering questions posed.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#165

Post by acdha »

OCASM wrote: post #161
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to see that evidence, thanks. Edit: specifically I would like to see evidence that 1) a behavioral trait occurs in one gender identity that is universal across the majority of human culture to eliminate cultural bias, 2) that this trait has a causative effect on the career prospects of that person again across the majority of human culture to avoid culture bias (also that when this trait is strong in a g…

Sex differences in personality are exhibited in other primates as well. That rules out culture as the sole generator of them.

That argument still requires evidence that those personality differences exist, aren’t learned (other primates have learned behavior, too – see e.g. http://www.radiolab.org/story/91694-new-baboon/), and are significant to the very complex behaviors under discussion.

The other area it ignores is the degree to which humanity’s distinctive advantage is plasticity. We can learn to do things like be comfortable in an enclosed space full of strangers – imagine a subway full of baboons! – which doesn’t mean that biology can’t be a factor but does mean that it’s really important (and hard) to critically test those assumptions.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#166

Post by ben_w »

sdca wrote: post #136
ben_w wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has the average person heard of 4-chan? If they had, would they understand it as anything different to Facebook, which they seem to trust, or the comments section under a news story, ditto? People don’t know what accurate and trustworthy looks like. Even when things are labeled as fiction, they can have an effect - Scotish Independence became more popular when the film “Braveheart” was released, while Islamophobia we…

Speculation on motive begins immediately when we learn what the target was and the weapons that were used. You can't censor that without censoring the entire incident.

That is as irrelevant as it is correct. Yes, humans speculate, but we shouldn’t be amplifying our known cognitive biases by presenting wild speculation (let alone 4-chan) as if were authoritative truth.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#167

Post by pjc50 »

throwaway4945 wrote: post #162
pjc50 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think at this stage it's like insisting that people filter their own water when there are organisations out there actively dumping toxic waste into it. It's not just the Internet though, it's organisations like Infowars who are out there claiming that the Vegas shooting was some kind of "false flag", after his previous disinformation on the Sandy Hook incident.

I believe your metaphor is falling short. Taken to the opposite extreme, censorship would be giving the people clean water? Or are we about to make claims about "absolute truth" in breaking news?

Absolute truth is hard to come by. Absolute falsehood is all over the place.

Let's not straw man by pretending that the existing system is entirely 100% censorship free, either.

(I don't have a clear proposal and it's a complex problem, but in the worst case - Rwanda - some of the people involved in hate radio were eventually charged with crimes against humanity)

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#168

Post by amcca029 »

abrahamepton wrote: post #158
losteverything wrote: post #135

I dont know if i could disagree with the author more. They didn't fail me. I don't want or need to know about shootings, crashes, floods, etc. Not instantly, anyway. I did not seek news in las vegas: I avoid it. If anything the previous news gatekeepers got us used to believing that if we dont stop everything we are somehow uncaring. So plane crashes, shootings etc hold a "insta-pass" to news. All hands on deck appro…

I worked at Google News for 5 years, and completely agree w/Alexis. Google promoted 4Chan as a top result for people who wanted to know about Las Vegas; that's a fail, period. It is a fail. It should not have happened; it should not happen again; it should never happen. Great, maybe you personally weren't fooled. That's entirely and totally irrelevant since there are 7 billion people on the planet and Google (and FB…

> Google promoted 4Chan as a top result for people who wanted to know about Las Vegas

Great Job!

But in all seriousness 4chan and other sites tend to react very fast, was there any manipulation going on or was it just that they where getting picked up due to high initial activity?

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#169

Post by OCASM »

acdha wrote: post #165
OCASM wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sex differences in personality are exhibited in other primates as well. That rules out culture as the sole generator of them.

That argument still requires evidence that those personality differences exist, aren’t learned (other primates have learned behavior, too – see e.g. http://www.radiolab.org/story/91694-new-baboon/ ), and are significant to the very complex behaviors under discussion. The other area it ignores is the degree to which humanity’s distinctive advantage is plasticity. We can learn to do things like be comfortable in an enc…

There are also experiments (Simon Baron-Cohen) with infants at one day of age showing the differences in interests (human faces vs things).

In that vein we can also include personality changes displayed by transgender people who undergo hormone replacement therapy.

Also studies on the personalities of separated twins.

Everything points to a mix of biology and socialization. The idea of parity in division of labor as the ideal is purely dogmatic.

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