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Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

newscientist.com

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Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#21

Anytime an article hits Hacker News such as this; that is, with explicit references to class and socioeconomic status, I cringe as I read the comments. The comments are both predictable, and utterly devastating. Psychology is largely at play here, since both the Fundamental attribution error ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error ) and cognitive dissonance ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitiv…

It's not their fault. Most people simply don't know what bottomless despair is like. Even fewer know what it's like to have no resources whatsoever to deal with it.

I sometimes still cry and question why I wasn't born normal like others. It doesn't matter what I know and understand. It doesn't matter what I tell myself. I still feel that stab. I couldn't have imagined what this felt like until I had to go through it, and herein lies the problem. The people who often try to erase social injustices are those who have lived a life of privilege and have absolutely no idea what it's like on the other side. A lot of them rely on second or third hand sources, but they often fail to get the gist of things. This isn't something wrong on it's own, but whenever people are frustrated they tend to grope for explanations and a lot of people fail to give this any thought whatsoever.

Even though this article seems to be well intentioned, but stuff like this hurts people in the longer run. Take a look at this;

>>>It is not simply a case of teenage girls from deprived backgrounds accidentally becoming pregnant. Evidence from many sources suggests that teen pregnancy rates are similar in poor and affluent communities. However, motherhood is a choice, as both Geronimus and Johns are keen to point out. Teenage girls from affluent backgrounds are more likely to have abortions than their less-privileged peers. In terms of reproduction, the more affluent girls are best off concentrating on their own career and development so that they can invest more in the children they have at a later stage. "It seems that girls are assessing their life chances on a number of fronts and making conscious decisions about reproduction," says Johns.The reason why they don't have pretty often is because they can't afford abortions. Even if there are clinics that perform this for an extremely low cost. Most people lack access and awareness in the ghetto, which is just another side effect of growing up there. Affluent children can think about their life choices because they have the luxury of doing so. Most children from the ghetto don't.

The very idea that such behavior is driven by genetic impulses is something that shows a flawed understanding of the entire concept at some stage by the writer. I am not an expert on it, but Richard Dawkins surely is and he takes the pains to point out that genes are like a coder who writes a complex AI program. After her/his job is finished the program is on its own. If you think about it everything comes down to genetic impulses and the environment plays a crucial role in determining those impulses, but in humans another paradigm also comes into the equation; the ability for us to make a conscious choice.

What I am trying to say is that the expert who wrote that paper is trying to get an extremely valuable point across, but the way it is used to explain everything is demeaning and flawed. There is no magic bullet for such problems, and you really need not resort to such things. Good ole' hard work with dedication and understanding ought to do.

[edit: I forgot to add "flawed understanding by the writer" the expert who has been quoted is spot on, but the general conclusions derived seem to be pretty shabby.]

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you dispute the fact that children of people who practice Judaism are likely to practice Judaism themselves? If not, why would you find it unlikely that the children of people who practice a fast lifestyle might similarly repeat their parent's behavior? Some components of personality are genetic (and not just heritable), as has been demonstrated by many twin studies. But we hardly need to invoke genetics to exp…

Sure, but that's what I thought I was arguing, since kids inheriting behaviors from their parents is one kind of environmental factor. I'm not sure I'd call it a "personal choice", given that one doesn't choose one's parents, and doesn't fully choose what aspects of one's environment to be influenced by. There's lots of room for personal choices, of course, but I think they all happen against a strong background of e…

You can call it an environmental effect, if you wish, but it isn't the sort of environmental effect the article is talking about.

The article claims that 'this kind of "delinquent" behaviour is a sensible response to the circumstances of a life constrained by poverty', not that poor people are repeating the same bad choices as their parents. The article claims that "Once you are in a situation where the expected healthy lifetime is short whatever you do, then there is less incentive to look after yourself." That might be true, but it is irrelevant since your lifetime is longer if you make better choices. Being overweight or obese (a major pathology of the poor) is a much greater threat to your life than crime and car crashes (environmental killers cited by the article), but your weight and exercise levels are entirely under your control.

The point of the article is that what we perceive as bad choices is just a rational response to pathologies caused by environment (and they cite examples like the food we eat, the jobs we work, and the possibility of crime or car crashes), and that the choices are not the cause of the pathologies.

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#23
The article seems to confirm the idea that we can't improve the life of the underclass, we can only shrink the underclass by moving people out of it. Unfortunately, not many people who are magically plucked out of their culture and society (via scholarships or employment) can bear to alienate themselves from their roots forever, so that isn't a solution, either. Even if we consistently skim off the exceptional individuals who are capable of handling that kind of dislocation, the underclass will sustain itself.

Personally, I think the solution is to provide a minimum guaranteed standard of living, no questions asked, no silly ragged patchwork quilt of programs, just a minimum standard of living. Not enough to remove the stigma of poverty -- we don't want people to be comfortable or satisfied on the dole -- just enough to make it worthwhile for people to invest in themselves and avoid anti-social behavior.

What we will then discover is whether an absolute level economic subsistence can transform behavior, or whether it is the stigma of relative poverty that causes people to behave antisocially.

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#24

Anytime an article hits Hacker News such as this; that is, with explicit references to class and socioeconomic status, I cringe as I read the comments. The comments are both predictable, and utterly devastating. Psychology is largely at play here, since both the Fundamental attribution error ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error ) and cognitive dissonance ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitiv…

I know where you're coming from, but I think that's a little judgemental. Most people are either affected by or extremely concerned about poverty and welfare - I don't quite follow how cognitive dissonance comes into it.

Maybe people don't think of responding to this, a large scale study, with personal anecdotes. There are plenty of amazing posts on HN in response to other stories.

Surely it's valuable to understand more about ourselves, what affects us, and how we can offer effective help, even if the process can seem a little clinical and heartless.

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#25

Anytime an article hits Hacker News such as this; that is, with explicit references to class and socioeconomic status, I cringe as I read the comments. The comments are both predictable, and utterly devastating. Psychology is largely at play here, since both the Fundamental attribution error ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error ) and cognitive dissonance ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitiv…

It's not their fault. Most people simply don't know what bottomless despair is like. Even fewer know what it's like to have no resources whatsoever to deal with it. I sometimes still cry and question why I wasn't born normal like others. It doesn't matter what I know and understand. It doesn't matter what I tell myself. I still feel that stab. I couldn't have imagined what this felt like until I had to go through it,…

While I do respect your larger point...

The reason why they don't have pretty often is because they can't afford abortions.

A lot of the research in that article was done in the UK, where cost is not really a factor. Abortions are covered by the national heath service. Also, there are no parental notification rules or any similar barriers that make it so hard in the US.

Contraception is also free, and so I don't think it is completely unreasonable to speculate that many of these births are actually wanted and to examine the reasons for them, as the researchers are attempting in the OP. Whether their theory is actually correct, I don't know.

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#26
post #23

The article seems to confirm the idea that we can't improve the life of the underclass, we can only shrink the underclass by moving people out of it. Unfortunately, not many people who are magically plucked out of their culture and society (via scholarships or employment) can bear to alienate themselves from their roots forever, so that isn't a solution, either. Even if we consistently skim off the exceptional indivi…

I agree with everything you say, but the problem is, what is the minimum standard without people being comfortable?

Unfortunately, I know more than a couple in my family who despite having an iPhone and big screen TV, also have declared bankruptcy a few times, and will go on food stamps at times.

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#27
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not their fault. Most people simply don't know what bottomless despair is like. Even fewer know what it's like to have no resources whatsoever to deal with it. I sometimes still cry and question why I wasn't born normal like others. It doesn't matter what I know and understand. It doesn't matter what I tell myself. I still feel that stab. I couldn't have imagined what this felt like until I had to go through it,…

While I do respect your larger point... The reason why they don't have pretty often is because they can't afford abortions. A lot of the research in that article was done in the UK, where cost is not really a factor. Abortions are covered by the national heath service. Also, there are no parental notification rules or any similar barriers that make it so hard in the US. Contraception is also free, and so I don't thin…

My mother works in the health ministry and I read some of her files one day. They had the same problem even though they were giving out services and contraception for free social stigma, lack of awareness and access resulted in people turning away from such resources.

I am not saying that the births are not wanted either. What I am trying to say is that as a result of the environment such children are in they are taught that this is life and there is nothing more they can expect. This doesn't happen explicitly but implicitly through the actions of others.

I really can't explain this. I think that the OP is right and they are well intentioned, but they are making the same mistake over and over again. There is no magic bullet over here.

Of course, you should try to find ways to increase your ability to make change, but there really is not magic bullet.

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#28
post #24

Anytime an article hits Hacker News such as this; that is, with explicit references to class and socioeconomic status, I cringe as I read the comments. The comments are both predictable, and utterly devastating. Psychology is largely at play here, since both the Fundamental attribution error ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error ) and cognitive dissonance ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitiv…

I know where you're coming from, but I think that's a little judgemental. Most people are either affected by or extremely concerned about poverty and welfare - I don't quite follow how cognitive dissonance comes into it. Maybe people don't think of responding to this, a large scale study, with personal anecdotes. There are plenty of amazing posts on HN in response to other stories. Surely it's valuable to understand…

He isn't suggesting people are not concerned by poverty.

He is attempting to shut down debate by suggesting that anyone who hasn't actually experienced the phenomenon under discussion is incapable of reasoning about it and is probably irrational. One could make similar statements about any topic:

Anytime an article hits Hacker News such as this; that is, with explicit references to astronomy and outer space, I cringe as I read the comments[...]Psychology is largely at play here, [wikipedia articles about irrationality]. For the most part, the readership here often seems to be completely unaware of the realities in an extraterrestrial environment. [No facts provided.] I've lived a terrestrial live. I could not possibly imagine a low temperature, low pressure environment [and like me, no one else can reason about phenomena they have not personally experienced.]

Such statements serve only to stifle debate, most likely in an effort to induce people to support an emotionally pleasing policy choice.

When I make the same statement about an environment utterly alien to all human experience, it's obviously ridiculous. So why do we accept such a statement when it is made about nothing but a different sort of human experience?

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#29

The article is seriously flawed, because it completely discounts the possibility that the fast lifestyle is the cause of the pathologies of the poor. It mentions the oft-cited statistic that 2000 calories of junk food is cheaper than 2000 calories of vegetables. The fact is true, but irrelevant; if you are overweight or obese (as most of the poor are), you can reduce your caloric intake and increase food quality for…

63% of all adult Americans are overweight or obese, graduate students included. In poor areas it is hard to swap bad calories for good, because there is no place to get good food cheaply. I don't know about Jersey City, but in Queens there are plenty of "ghetto" Indian people (for lack of a better phrase.)

Re: Die young, live fast: The evolution of an underclass

#30

Not much new here but I'm always suspicious of anything with an 'evolutionary psychology approved' sticker. I know that the basis of the theory is that most behavior is a response to maximizing gene propagation but I haven't seen the theory used to rule out any behaviors. It basically justifies whatever is the status quo with what sounds like science because the initial hypothesis sounds reasonable and scientific.

> I haven't seen the theory used to rule out any behaviors

The article itself includes more than one example. E.g. the researchers hypothesized that, given some premises about evolution, poor women would have more kids earlier. This rules out them having fewer kids later.

Then they went and tested it.

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