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Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

theatlantic.com

151–160 of 191 posts

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#151
"The problems with surfacing this man’s group to Facebook users is obvious to literally any human. But to Facebook’s algorithms, it’s just a fast-growing group with an engaged community."

"Most people who joined the group looking for information presumably don’t know that the founder is notorious for legal and informational hijinks."

Those two paragraphs appear back to back in the article and are completely contradictory. 5000 people joined because it isn't "obvious to literally every human."

[edited to add quotation marks to make my comment clearer]

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#153
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only anti-rationalist and anti-Enlightenment, but you're even disagreeing with object permanence! And not even "not only" that, it also veers into the dirty movement of muddying the waters of responsible reporting, into a discussion of "what is truth really?". When "nothing is true", every venue from 4chan to infowars is equal in its non-truth to AP/Reuters/WaPo/NYT/Atlantic/etc. When all media is fake, listeni…

Yeah no it doesn't. Just one more thing to ignore. Unless I personally saw someone turn gay from drinking water, but even if I thought I saw that, I wouldn't totally believe that either. And I did mention trusted parties, which could be a reporter. You guys are just not in the mood for philosophising tonight I guess. You want to be certain of things. Disappointing response. Should've avoided the term "fake news." It'…

[deleted]

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#154
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to see that evidence, thanks. Edit: specifically I would like to see evidence that 1) a behavioral trait occurs in one gender identity that is universal across the majority of human culture to eliminate cultural bias, 2) that this trait has a causative effect on the career prospects of that person again across the majority of human culture to avoid culture bias (also that when this trait is strong in a g…

> I would like to see that evidence, thanks. You won't find it. This is the problem in the soft sciences. There are certain hypotheses that you just can't test and this is one of them. Choosing to believe that unbalanced gender representations in certain fields is unnatural is just as unfounded as the parent's opposite view. The best we can do is make conjectures based on the results of things we can test but it's in…

That’s a very pessimistic view of what science can do. It’s true that the softer fields are harder to experiment in but scientists have many tools for that – it’s not like people just gave up the first time they hit a problem harder to test than Mendel’s peas.

As a few examples, you could do broad reviews to see if different cultures have different outcomes (e.g. the former communist bloc countries having higher percentages of female engineers and scientists undercuts the arguments that this is dictated by biology), draw comparisons from other fields (e.g. the same justifications were used to excuse gender ratios in law, medicine, music, etc. but cultural changes brought greater equality on a timescale far far than biology could change), or try to find underlying biological explanations — e.g. we didn’t need a cultural change to explain why women aren’t power lifting as much on average because there’s an underlying mechanism and there are individuals who have outlier levels of testosterone & other factors and those people generally perform as the biological mechanism would predict.

Most importantly, this could start by questioning the assumptions used to explain the status quo. For example, did the requisite skills change after the early 1980s when female CS participation declined? Lots of men like to excuse different participation rates with some argument based on mathematical or spatial skills, which could be tested to see how many successful people rely on those skills vs. more equal fields like math or chemistry.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#155

I dont know if i could disagree with the author more. They didn't fail me. I don't want or need to know about shootings, crashes, floods, etc. Not instantly, anyway. I did not seek news in las vegas: I avoid it. If anything the previous news gatekeepers got us used to believing that if we dont stop everything we are somehow uncaring. So plane crashes, shootings etc hold a "insta-pass" to news. All hands on deck appro…

I agree and the author, Alex Madrigal, seems to be ignorant to the history of the dissemination of misinformation. He commits the same error as other journalists complaining about Google/Facebook algorithms by not mentioning their "human judgement" within news orgs causes similar problems.

Let's look at how the news publications handled the "truthiness" of Iraq WMD:

- No skepticism that WMD exists: September 2002 article (WMD fever 6 months before the March 2003 invasion of Iraq)[1].

- WMD not found: January 2004 article (10 months after the invasion when soldiers found nothing.)[2]

Before March 2003, all the influential news orgs in USA such as NYTimes, Washington Post, and all 4 major tv networks pandered to the Bush administration's "slam dunk" narrative for Iraq having WMD.

You can't make excuses for those USA news orgs and say they were tricked. That's because the news outlets in Europe (especially the journalists in France and Sweden) were more skeptical about WMD and wrote that attacking Iraq would be a big mistake.

It's fascinating how the journalists write as if they're on a perch of higher judgement over the mass of helpless readers when they themselves fall victims to the same scams of misinformation and spread that misinformation to audiences just like bad Google algorithms.

(See documentaries "War Made Easy"[3] and "Buying the War"[4] that show how journalists lack independent critical judgement and fall in lockstep to spread misinformation.)

>There’s no hiding behind algorithms anymore. The problems cannot be minimized. The machines have shown they are not up to the task of dealing with rare, breaking news events, and it is unlikely that they will be in the near future. More humans must be added to the decision-making process, and the sooner the better.

But humans and their judgement are not even up to the task of slow-moving news like the buildup to war. For the Iraq fiasco, maybe the better solution in 2003 is "more algorithms" in such that USA readers would end up in a 50/50 split with half believing Iraq had WMD and the other half remaining skeptical. Instead, the polls showed that majority of Americans believed Iraq had WMD.[5] How did they get that wrong belief?!? The mainstream news, that's how. (Facebook "fake news" didn't exist in 2003.)

Yes, Google needs better algorithms; but I'm not convinced that people like Alex or government officials should be the ones regulating the algorithms. They have a proven track history of being as flawed as the readers they're trying to inform with the "truth". (Thought experiment: if Google search results in Feb 2003 had returned more results saying "no proof Iraq has WMD", American journalists and the government would have criticized Google's algorithm for spreading "fake news"!)

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/world/threats-responses-ir...

[2] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2004/01/spies-l...

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9DjSg6l9Vs

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KzYL6e3sV0

[5] http://news.gallup.com/poll/8623/americans-still-think-iraq-...

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#156
post #58
post #50

Google is all about filtering. It doesn't just show you a random selection of every page on the internet containing your search term. Instead it applies subjective criteria to present you with what Google thinks would be the "best" results for you. This is why people use Google. So I don't understand when people make the generic argument against filtering, that filtering is categorically bad and Google shouldn't be i…

> This is why people use Google. Wait, what? I use it despite that. Since 2000. Everybody seeing the same search results was never a problem, and sometimes even useful. There is a wide area between "just show random pages" (which probably not even the first prototype of any search engine ever did) and a "personal" filter you can't configure at all.

I don't mean the filter is personalized to you, I just mean that there is a filter! That is, Google doesn't believe every website is equally "good", they Rank Pages based on subjective criteria.

I just don't get why no one has a problem with Google trying to filter out spam (even though it can't be detected with 100% accuracy) but trying to prevent 4chan/GatewayPundit's blatant and obvious lies from being elevated is a place to take a principled stand.

Where are the tears for the spammers and scammers who have been so unfairly censored by Google for so many years?

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#157

Google admits to scraping 4chan for news stories. This isn't just about "the algorithms" - a human decided that 4chan could potentially show up in that carousel. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/10/googl... Google News' statement claims that these false reports landed on the service's "Top Stories" feed due to a burst of activity for a name that had never received many search attempts. "When the fr…

Last I heard, 4Chan founder Chris Poole now is employed by Google as of about a year ago. Shortly after that, people on various boards noticed /pol/ results etc. showing up in Google News. I'm not sure if there's a coincidence in that timing or not :)

At any rate, yeah, someone had to approve including message boards as a potential source to scrape for news. Not a good decision in my mind -- 4Chan's reputation makes this decision even more questionable, sure, but I can't think of any general social media / message boards / comment sections / etc. that would qualify as "news" in my mind. Certainly this lowers the value of Google News to me.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#158

I dont know if i could disagree with the author more. They didn't fail me. I don't want or need to know about shootings, crashes, floods, etc. Not instantly, anyway. I did not seek news in las vegas: I avoid it. If anything the previous news gatekeepers got us used to believing that if we dont stop everything we are somehow uncaring. So plane crashes, shootings etc hold a "insta-pass" to news. All hands on deck appro…

I worked at Google News for 5 years, and completely agree w/Alexis. Google promoted 4Chan as a top result for people who wanted to know about Las Vegas; that's a fail, period. It is a fail. It should not have happened; it should not happen again; it should never happen.

Great, maybe you personally weren't fooled. That's entirely and totally irrelevant since there are 7 billion people on the planet and Google (and FB and everyone else) wants to serve all of them. Not all of whom are exactly like you.

Google fucked up, admitted it (kinda) and needs to do better. Period. Not hard to understand.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#159
post #149

I dont know if i could disagree with the author more. They didn't fail me. I don't want or need to know about shootings, crashes, floods, etc. Not instantly, anyway. I did not seek news in las vegas: I avoid it. If anything the previous news gatekeepers got us used to believing that if we dont stop everything we are somehow uncaring. So plane crashes, shootings etc hold a "insta-pass" to news. All hands on deck appro…

> To me, the authors premise of FB and G as bad gatekeepers is wrong. Information is hardly ever right right away. Nobody i know expects that. Even with that, i believe people know the difference between a photo sharing site, a email and search/map site and a news organization. I think Facebook does a decent job of presenting a news feed driven by your "friends." Not that it's a good thing (it's certainly not in most…

A great line! Have to keep that top of mind reading anything online

But G has no Murrow-esque anything and i think its unrealistic and unfair to expext it can.

G is simply a live canvas where everybody splatters paint and people walk by the gallery at different times seeing different things

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#160

I dont know if i could disagree with the author more. They didn't fail me. I don't want or need to know about shootings, crashes, floods, etc. Not instantly, anyway. I did not seek news in las vegas: I avoid it. If anything the previous news gatekeepers got us used to believing that if we dont stop everything we are somehow uncaring. So plane crashes, shootings etc hold a "insta-pass" to news. All hands on deck appro…

You overestimate the intelligence of the general American public.

general American public -> general public
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