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Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

theatlantic.com

141–150 of 191 posts

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#141
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unfiltered results ARE the truth. 4chan is the truth. In the sense that "Someone posted this thing on 4chan." And that's the only truth there is in internet-land: Someone posted something. Is it real? Is it true, what they posted? Or is it "fake news?" You will never know, and you probably shouldn't try to take it that far. Or if you do, at least be able to handle the cognitive dissonance of believing it and not-…

> The only thing you can truly know is what you witness in person. Why do you trust your eyes? Eyewitness accounts are notoriously inaccurate. Why trust your brain? How do you even know that the world you think exists is real? Maybe you are just dreaming right now. You went part-way down the rabbit hole, then stopped. Better to go all the way, then decide on a rational basis for belief (which is probably more complic…

"I trust my own lying eyes"

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#142
post #78
post #11

I think there's already too much filtering. People need to make up their own minds regarding what is true and what isn't, what's worth their time and what's bullshit, which links to click on and which to avoid. If people can't handle this then we need to spend more money on education, or just accept that some people disagree with us. I don't think aggressively filtering "untrustworthy" content will lead to a net bene…

I think at this stage it's like insisting that people filter their own water when there are organisations out there actively dumping toxic waste into it. It's not just the Internet though, it's organisations like Infowars who are out there claiming that the Vegas shooting was some kind of "false flag", after his previous disinformation on the Sandy Hook incident.

[deleted]

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#143

Zeynep Tufekci had a couple great columns about this recently regarding FB and the US elections this year. While I recognize that there's always a concern about who the gatekeepers get to be in the marketplace of ideas, I think this is a considerably more complex issues than "let all the information go wherever it wants and let the people sort it out" Putting 4Chan in a top news slot is not "allowing unedited and unf…

The problem comes in our choice of who should be the "gatekeepers of information"? Certainly not The Altlantic, The New Yorker (as seen sited in this discussion) or any other traditional news outlet. They have shown time and time again that the peiple running these outlets, not only, have very biased stations when presenting the news (i.e. from MSNBC to Fox News and the rainbow of bias between), they have shown, for a very long time, that these same traditional news sources are easily bought and do not handle a 24 hour news cast well, at all (look at the reports of something as simple as Tom Petty's death, yesterday, a dozen hours or so before his death). While I certainly don't trust Google or Facebook to report the news, I have trouble relying on the "gatekeepers" (blech) of the news, as well.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#144
post #101
post #80

If we all such smart people/techies, can we spitball a better breaking news feed algorithm into existence? I'll kick it off - 1. Focus all news on Who? What? When? Where? Omit the "Why?". 2. When in doubt cite the primary news sources (police feeds/courtrooms/local authorities/opposition leaders/pictures/geo tagged and timestamped audio&video feeds with geo tags) 3. Secondary news sources like news orgs and journalis…

Just a comment: Reputation is key. Having studied game theory for systems of agents producing results and content, I feel fairly confident in this conclusion: the only reliable long-term design to incentivize beneficient, truthful behavior involves assigning good reputation in return for good behavior, and assigning future rewards/attention based on past reputation. Based on this, I postulate that any good news feed…

Reputation can be gamed and manipulated in much the same way that any other information can be. Case in point: which information sources get high-profile stories like this one accusing them of failing us and spreading dangerous rumours is almost entirely a function of the current preferred media narrative. I've seen so many reputable journalists start and spread viral bullshit on social media that becomes widely believed, but that issue doesn't fit the narrative whereas making a big deal about a Google search that would only ever be made by people who'd already come across the same false claim somewhere else does.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#145

Zeynep Tufekci had a couple great columns about this recently regarding FB and the US elections this year. While I recognize that there's always a concern about who the gatekeepers get to be in the marketplace of ideas, I think this is a considerably more complex issues than "let all the information go wherever it wants and let the people sort it out" Putting 4Chan in a top news slot is not "allowing unedited and unf…

The problem comes in our choice of who should be the "gatekeepers of information"? Certainly not The Altlantic, The New Yorker (as seen sited in this discussion) or any other traditional news outlet. They have shown time and time again that the peiple running these outlets, not only, have very biased stations when presenting the news (i.e. from MSNBC to Fox News and the rainbow of bias between), they have shown, for…

> They have shown time and time again that the peiple running these outlets, not only, have very biased stations when presenting the news

That’s a really sweeping equivalence claim to make without any proof, much less a way to account for the mountain of evidence contradicting your assertion. Dismissing real organizations with editors, fact checkers, a range of viewpoints, etc. because they aren’t fun by dispassionate robots is simply an error — you might read a story in the NYT and expect them to favor a different side than the WSJ but most people know that both employ decent journalists, check sources, and print corrections when necessary.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#146
post #76

The reason why those of us on this forum can tell the difference between good and bad information is because we received a good education and learned critical analysis skills. Facebook, Google and the internet in general are an objectively bad source of knowledge. They are subjectively good sources of knowledge. The vast majority of people do not have the skills to use the internet as a source for good knowledge. The…

> The vast majority of people do not have the skills to use the internet as a source for good knowledge. We (and others, this is not about us) are wary enough that its consequences are dampened. Shielded because we know, or know enough, what Google and Facebook are. Algorithms on top of data maximizing popularity metrics. And popularity is taken so seriously as to be seen as a measure of truth (see: time spent watchi…

What concrete actions are you proposing that we take? What defenses are there for the "globalism on the mind"?

When I see you write:

>> There is no truth in search order, nor should you expect to find it there.

It seems you decry action from a position of intellectual weakness. e.g We cannot know what we do, therefore we cannot modify or temper our actions.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#147

I dont know if i could disagree with the author more. They didn't fail me. I don't want or need to know about shootings, crashes, floods, etc. Not instantly, anyway. I did not seek news in las vegas: I avoid it. If anything the previous news gatekeepers got us used to believing that if we dont stop everything we are somehow uncaring. So plane crashes, shootings etc hold a "insta-pass" to news. All hands on deck appro…

You overestimate the intelligence of the general American public.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't just decide what is true. Think back to the US election you can't just "decide" that the story of thousands of Ohio ballots pre-marked for Hillary Clinton was true. http://www.snopes.com/clinton-votes-found-in-warehouse/ You can't just decide that the story of a protester with a rape Melania was true http://www.snopes.com/2016/11/14/melania-sign-at-anti-trump-... You can't just decide for yourself that clim…

...so you outsource your Truth to Snopes, got it. I hope Snopes never lets you down. people will always draw conclusions based on their own observations, good thing Einstein didn't have snopes to say "Actually, the Theory of Relativity is a myth: Pants on Fire rating!

Snopes cites sources and has spent the last couple decades building a reputation for reliability. That doesn’t make them perfect any more than, say, the dictionary contains no errors but the odds overwhelmingly favor them being right over some random internet commenter.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#149

I dont know if i could disagree with the author more. They didn't fail me. I don't want or need to know about shootings, crashes, floods, etc. Not instantly, anyway. I did not seek news in las vegas: I avoid it. If anything the previous news gatekeepers got us used to believing that if we dont stop everything we are somehow uncaring. So plane crashes, shootings etc hold a "insta-pass" to news. All hands on deck appro…

> To me, the authors premise of FB and G as bad gatekeepers is wrong. Information is hardly ever right right away. Nobody i know expects that. Even with that, i believe people know the difference between a photo sharing site, a email and search/map site and a news organization.

I think Facebook does a decent job of presenting a news feed driven by your "friends." Not that it's a good thing (it's certainly not in most cases) but by and large people are seeing the good and bad information that their friends are promoting, which is what they want, because they want to maintain their social awareness and connectedness more than they want to be informed. Facebook also does a pretty good job of indicating the social source of the news, so you can evaluate it in the light of your "friend"'s credibility. Facebook just lets people be people, with all the horrible implications of that.

Google straight-up presents articles as "news" and then disclaims any responsibility for it, on the implicit argument that a company with tens of thousands of employees, billions in market cap, and one of the most visible platforms in the world shouldn't be held to the same standard as a small city newspaper because they're using algorithms. They direct blame to their algorithms and then argue that algorithms are inherently blameless, a trick that we keep letting them get away with. Their excuse of "it's just algorithms" is as cheap and meaningless as "it's just for the lulz." They don't say "here's the news chosen by an algorithm which of course often makes horrific mistakes a human never would." They present "Google News" with layout and sections just like a professionally produced news site, until they screw up, and then they say, "Well, of course it's not journalism, don't make that mistake. It's just algorithms. Didn't you notice the Google colors and subdued graphic design? We're not trying to fool anybody."

Their take this time:

Within hours, the 4chan story was algorithmically replaced by relevant results.

Ah, so everything worked as designed. No need for humans to take responsibility. Just stand back and let the system work. Again, a small city newspaper that left something like that up for hours would be condemned for callousness and suspected of intentionally promoting disinformation. Google seems to be on its way to arguing that its systems either cannot or should not be overridden by humans, even to correct horrific mistakes, if it's not there already.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#150

The reason why those of us on this forum can tell the difference between good and bad information is because we received a good education and learned critical analysis skills. Facebook, Google and the internet in general are an objectively bad source of knowledge. They are subjectively good sources of knowledge. The vast majority of people do not have the skills to use the internet as a source for good knowledge. The…

Yes, it takes skill to obtain information from the internet, just like it takes skill to obtain information from reading books in the library(you have to know how to read). If you lack these skills, you are limited to the comicbook section in the library, and to cat videos on the internet. Internet is a much superior tool of obtaining information, obviously. Just because it takes skill to use it, doesn't mean that it…

First, it may be better for you and I. It may be much worse than a library for most other people. It also may be worse than a library at a world-class university for even you or I. It may only be more convenient than going to a library or walking the halls of a university.

I don't think the answer is obvious to anyone who takes the time to properly examine the matter.

Unfortunately for the both of us the medium itself is terrible for philosophical enquiry so we probably won't cover much ground in a discussion framed by popular opinion.

You will now set out to prove me wrong and hope to gather support from people who already agree with you. We will not at all engage in the cooperative quest for wisdom.

Such is life on the internet.

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