Is the Rise of Contract Workers Killing Upward Mobility? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is the Rise of Contract Workers Killing Upward Mobility?

#61

Post by mtberatwork » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 1:18 PM UTC

pm24601 wrote: post #6

jondubois wrote: post #5

I've done a lot of contract work as a software engineer over the past 5 years. It's a good way to experiment with a lot of different companies and industries. It's generally true that contractors can't get promoted within the company. It's not unusual to see 40+ year old contractors still working as engineers. The money is great but you really need to have a low risk investment strategy on the side... I don't think y…

Contracting as a sw engineer is one thing.. contracting as a warehouse worker is the real problem

Is it though? Upward mobility is a long-term trajectory. Sustaining a profitable career for 10, 20, 30+ years even as an independent software contractor is extremely difficult (especially as the market floods with competition). I think most devs who jump into the freelance world only see the short term hourly wage and miss the risks/opportunity costs involved with running a business. Those risks and opportunity costs will manifest themselves in the future.

Re: Is the Rise of Contract Workers Killing Upward Mobility?

#62

Post by jondubois » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 1:23 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #19

sefrost wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is contracting in the US the same thing as contracting in the UK? The article doesn't seem to explain what a contractor is.

I have no idea! I get the impression that contracting in the US, at least in tech firms, is a lot less lucrative.

I've done contracting in Australia, UK and The Netherlands.

Australia and EU are great for contracting.

There are some really well paid London software engineering contracts (often paying higher than EU ones) but most are for big finance firms and they often want people to have a finance background so it's harder to get in. Also from my experience, UK contract recruiters tend to be more picky about having an exact technical skill match.

Australian contracts are the easiest to get. Some pay ridiculously well. I did an indefinite rolling contract that paid the AUD equivalent of USD $650 per day, $13K per month. It wasn't particularly challenging either.

I later travelled to other countries where software engineers were treated like factory workers so the country definitely matters.

Re: Is the Rise of Contract Workers Killing Upward Mobility?

#63

Post by KGIII » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 1:24 PM UTC

jonnathanson wrote: post #58

KGIII wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fun to poke fun at the system we have in the US, but we're doing fairly well from a numbers standpoint. Our GDP is fantastic, our median income is quite good, and we still manufacture a bunch of stuff. China didn't actually start to manufacture more than us until just a few years ago, and they have something like three times the population. People say the middle class is shrinking, but seldom mention that the nu…

Please point out where and how you believe I've been "poking fun at the system," or predicting its downfall, or in some broad way denouncing the US, as you seem to suggest I am doing? Critiquing an element of a system does not = opposing that system in its entirety. In this case, the element I take issue with is our short-term-optimized view of the value of human capital. Essentially, we fail to rationally calculate…

Which numbers would you like? They are all readily available at Google.

Median Income, adjusted: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Median_U...

Gross Domestic Product: https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/united-states-g...

Manufacturing Output: http://perspectives.pictet.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/US...

Unemployment Rate: https://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_8974_u...

Poverty Rates: https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/charts/82285/povertyratesby...

Now, if you feel you were attacked that is unfortunate, but the system isn't that bad and histrionics about Reagan and being seen as cogs in a wheel is rather dramatic when the system has demonstrated itself to be reasonably effective.

Re: Is the Rise of Contract Workers Killing Upward Mobility?

#64

Post by mc32 » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 1:26 PM UTC

As a contract worker it's unlikely you move up thru the organization you've been placed with. You may move up the org of the company who you contract with but your best bet is to opt for the trigger strategy and hop from one job to another with the accrued expertise, of there is expertise you can leverage. If it's repetitive stuff, then, there is little leverage and the best bet might be in moving to the management track.

Re: Is the Rise of Contract Workers Killing Upward Mobility?

#65

Post by taneq » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 1:29 PM UTC

Kurtz79 wrote: post #55

zimpenfish wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, contractors have to sort out the mess that permanent guys have made.

And when the contract ends, the permanent guys have to sort out the mess the contractor made.

That's what you get for working with other people, I guess.

Re: Is the Rise of Contract Workers Killing Upward Mobility?

#66

Post by twobyfour » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 1:32 PM UTC

wvh wrote: post #11

I've done mostly contract work because I liked the freedom when I was younger. Now I notice a lot of people my age have moved on to management or jobs "higher on the ladder" while I stress about the uncertainty of income when contracts end. I assume the lifestyle might suit people who are extraordinarily good networkers, but I feel mostly tired these days. My younger self didn't know about the fatigue the responsibil…

And contracting in a high-paying field like software development is one thing. Contracting for low-skill labor through a marketplace like Uber, TaskRabbit, Handy, etc. provides even less opportunity for any sort of career development.

Re: Is the Rise of Contract Workers Killing Upward Mobility?

#67

Post by sreenadh » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 1:35 PM UTC

Contract workers or Uber workers is a bad deal for all, with some short term gains.

For a worker, yes, its less of office politics and having to deal with crappy co-workers. But that is how you grow. I learned so much when I am working with people than being all alone. So, having couple of people approach the same problem in different ways, helps you learn, teach & grow. I was learning something new everyday, when I was working in a team. Plus contract jobs are effecting the basic needs of human beings - "food, clothing & shelter", due to the very nature of uncertainly. Basically I am more worried about the basics and not as focused at my job when I have a full time job. I feel that I am just completing the task at hand to get paid. I don't analyse the issue and try to find a solution or seek for some improvement. Plus working in a specific domain for a period will help in gaining experience and you have build up skills.

For a employer, how much ever you document a solution, there is going to be knowledge gaps. Only when you have someone working on a problem for a while, will they be able to come up with a better solution. Each employee comes come a different background and will view the problems differently. That will bring about a nice work culture.

Team work is not given enough credit. Instead, there is always the focus on one rock star that does it all. I personally feel that for that one rock star to actually perform, there needs to be a team behind to support.

Re: Is the Rise of Contract Workers Killing Upward Mobility?

#68

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 1:37 PM UTC

KGIII wrote: post #52

lotsofpulp wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Numbers are only useful in relative terms. Median is going up, but so is the income and wealth gap. What most people look to achieve in their life is security. Security of resources, water, food, electricity, and physical safety. People want the security of being able to plan for a future, a family, education for their children, seeing their children and children's children move ahead in the world. What GDP and media…

I've been reading that we are doomed since the days of reagonomics. Well, technically longer. I've seen the very same predictions and arguments made, yet here we are. To be absolutely clear - the system isn't perfect and could use improvements. My post was merely to point out that we're not only not doomed but are doing fairly well. We have hungry people, but we don't have people dying of hunger in the streets. We ha…

I agree, people need to be pushed quite far to literally revolt. As long as they have something to lose (and they can't afford to lose it or are willing to, such as football and beer), they will behave .

But societies rise and fall on a greater timeline than one's lifetime. Wages haven't risen since the 70s or 80s and there is still no revolution, so it will take time. But recognizing that there is a problem is the first step to fixing it, before it's too late and it snowballs. Or perhaps ups and downs are unavoidable, and it's best to just plan for yourself.

Either way, the declines in birth rate, marriage, and equality are, by all indications, due to structural economic factors. Society is changing, maybe not breaking down to the point of violent confrontations yet, but it is something to watch out for in the future, but it could take a while.

Re: Is the Rise of Contract Workers Killing Upward Mobility?

#69

Post by Nursie » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 1:45 PM UTC

jondubois wrote: post #62

Nursie wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea! I get the impression that contracting in the US, at least in tech firms, is a lot less lucrative.

I've done contracting in Australia, UK and The Netherlands. Australia and EU are great for contracting. There are some really well paid London software engineering contracts (often paying higher than EU ones) but most are for big finance firms and they often want people to have a finance background so it's harder to get in. Also from my experience, UK contract recruiters tend to be more picky about having an exact te…

>> I later travelled to other countries where software engineers were treated like factory workers

It's not far above that in a lot of UK places, particularly the SME space.

Maybe I should have tried contracting in Aus when I lived there!

Re: Is the Rise of Contract Workers Killing Upward Mobility?

#70

Post by otakucode » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 1:54 PM UTC

Upward mobility? Research came out 3-4 years ago I believe that showed that social mobility no longer existed in the US. It is normally measured by how many people die in a different tax bracket from their parents. As of a few years ago, that simply wasn't happening. If you were born to poor parents, you die poor. If you were born to rich parents, you die rich. On the overall statistical scale, there is no mobility.