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Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

theatlantic.com

71–80 of 191 posts

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#71
post #49
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> into a spot that many users believe is fairly authoritative I mean that's the real issue. You can't be unbiased while trying to be a source of truth. You can be impartial and return results based on relevancy or you can intervene in an attempt to return the truth. Google has ventured into dangerous territory by mixing the two -- especially with their automatic snippets that answer questions. > There is only figurin…

The unfiltered results ARE the truth. 4chan is the truth. In the sense that "Someone posted this thing on 4chan." And that's the only truth there is in internet-land: Someone posted something. Is it real? Is it true, what they posted? Or is it "fake news?" You will never know, and you probably shouldn't try to take it that far. Or if you do, at least be able to handle the cognitive dissonance of believing it and not-…

> Is it true, what they posted? Or is it "fake news?" You will never know

What nonsense. There are degrees of trust you can put in claims, based on a variety of factors. And you don't really believe it, either, as further on in your comment you say "The only thing you can truly know is what you witness in person". If you could know something is true from personally witnessing it you could know that a claim contradicting it is false.

> The only thing you can truly know is what you witness in person.

That's not true, either. Just because you "see" something doesn't mean what perceive is an accurate picture of what is actually there. Your brain is doing a huge amount of inference, based on expectations, to build the details you perceive. This goes up from basic things like the shapes and colours there, to what objects you individuate, to recognition of things like the expression someone is making or their body language, or perceiving what activity someone is undertaking. On top of that, when you talk about what you've witnessed, usually this is what you remember that you witnessed, and memory is notoriously unreliable.

I'd put far more trust in an experiemental "fact" that has been tested many times over in the lab, or in a body of knowledge that has been tested many times over in engineering (whose accuracy is "proved" by the fact that the machinery, such as a plane, actually works), than what someone thinks they saw for themselves a week ago.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#72
post #58
post #50

Google is all about filtering. It doesn't just show you a random selection of every page on the internet containing your search term. Instead it applies subjective criteria to present you with what Google thinks would be the "best" results for you. This is why people use Google. So I don't understand when people make the generic argument against filtering, that filtering is categorically bad and Google shouldn't be i…

> This is why people use Google. Wait, what? I use it despite that. Since 2000. Everybody seeing the same search results was never a problem, and sometimes even useful. There is a wide area between "just show random pages" (which probably not even the first prototype of any search engine ever did) and a "personal" filter you can't configure at all.

For the downvoters, this may come as a shock to you, but you don't get to tell me the reality of my life, either. And there is more than "random matches" and "personal filter", that's so banal it shouldn't even need saying, but apparently it does. So far you've only shown the desire to shut up what you can not argue with.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#73

Not 100% surprising that journalists would view the machines that have wrested control of the news from them with hostility. Facebook definitely could use improvements, and it sounds like Google's search ranking in these rare kinds of situations could too, but the vitriol here — and the suggestion to replace machine ranking with ... surprise, journalists! — makes it seem like the "Us" who've been failed by ranking al…

[deleted]

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#74
post #3

tl/dr: We don't think people are capable of exercising judgment, so we want the computers at Google and Facebook to do it for them. Good luck with that.

It's not that they are incapable of exercising judgement. It's that when they do exercise judgement, it is consistently towards bad content. False content.

This problem needs to be fixed with education. The article demonstrates an extremely profound misunderstanding of technology.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#75
post #2

Google and Facebook have failed the Atlantic which is seizing on tragedy to imply only sanctioned media (them of course) should be available through Internet searches. However most of the rest of us are not failed as we already know results from 4-Chan probably aren't accurate. Please stop failing all of us with this desperate bid to get back in control of information dispersal there The Atlantic. I'd much rather see…

Has the average person heard of 4-chan? If they had, would they understand it as anything different to Facebook, which they seem to trust, or the comments section under a news story, ditto?

People don’t know what accurate and trustworthy looks like. Even when things are labeled as fiction, they can have an effect - Scotish Independence became more popular when the film “Braveheart” was released, while Islamophobia went up after “American Sniper” was released. Or am I just repeating plausible but fictional urban legends that I’ve mistaken for reality?

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#76

The reason why those of us on this forum can tell the difference between good and bad information is because we received a good education and learned critical analysis skills. Facebook, Google and the internet in general are an objectively bad source of knowledge. They are subjectively good sources of knowledge. The vast majority of people do not have the skills to use the internet as a source for good knowledge. The…

> The vast majority of people do not have the skills to use the internet as a source for good knowledge.

We (and others, this is not about us) are wary enough that its consequences are dampened. Shielded because we know, or know enough, what Google and Facebook are. Algorithms on top of data maximizing popularity metrics. And popularity is taken so seriously as to be seen as a measure of truth (see: time spent watching any entertainment series 4th rerun). Be it mind share, clicks, network reach or whatever other criteria that can be deemed to convey content value, "significance and truth" is not it. There is no analytic measure of significance and truth. Even less so one valid across 3.7 billion internet users (value from a quick search, not to be taken too seriously as not all networks are connected, not all content will reach everywhere).

Facebook is not a network of friends. It is a graph of connections whose content acts as bait to keep you navigating it. It preys, displaying notoriety as the utmost standard, and equating interaction with success. Reality pales against the interface of social media, that openly displays number of likes, comments, shares, friends, stats we only catch a glimpse of outside. Your social media past is an absolute, like your current weight or your current number of kidneys, there's nothing more to it. There is no wiggle space. It is a record of your path that allows no perspective. There is only that one photo, which you carefully picked. On that day you shared that link, and that was your day. That is what you are for the network, and nothing more.

As for Google, you are not navigating truth. At most, you are navigating utility, as measured by ranking. There is no truth in search order, nor should you expect to find it there. You still need to think. Why was 4chan first? Something to do with being first, being active, being inflammatory, being accessed often?

From the article:

> 4chan results, they said, had not shown up for general searches about Las Vegas, but only for the name of the misidentified shooter. The reason the 4chan forum post showed up was that it was “fresh” and there were relatively few searches for the falsely accused man. Basically, the algorithms controlling what to show didn’t have a lot to go on, and when something new popped up as searches for the name were ramping up, it was happy to slot it as the first result.

There. If you search from something that 4chan talked about, you get 4chan results. Nevermind that you don't know what 4chan is, but it does, and it creates content! This, the article says, is a problem. The internet is seen as a stream of facts and when the common man discovers they were fed crap (in their deeply biased opinion, and if they ever notice at all), they complain to the stream provider! Instead of admitting "damn, I am stupid for falling for that, I should know better by now. What can I learn? Well, let me add 4chan to a filter, or learn what that place is so I can avoid it". Google hiked for weeks to a remote location, found the densest of jungles and entered a small opening, with a small swamp in the middle. Swam in the putrid water and found something akin to culture. There, in one of their rituals, he found your search term. Took a picture, and brought it to you. And you expected it to conform to your ideals of truth. There, as in other places, fringe thoughts are expressed, both real and fake[1]. But the article writer wanted Google, the tap he let open in the comfort of his living room, right in the middle of his truth of existence, to tell him HIS truth. But instead he got doxxing gone bad, users posting in epic threads and probably someone from /r/4chan asking to be included in the screenshot, as others scrambled to archive the thread, or derail it with spiderman pics, or even pretend-child-pron so the mods would delete the thread so as not to call the attention of "normies" once the outside world knows about the latest ritual they found: blaming Geary Danley for what happened in Vegas. Most of them aren't even in Vegas, or care enough about shootings to see the bigger picture. But they found lulz to be had.

And sure enough, here it is, in the article's conclusion:

> There’s no hiding behind algorithms anymore. The problems cannot be minimized. The machines have shown they are not up to the task of dealing with rare, breaking news events, and it is unlikely that they will be in the near future. More humans must be added to the decision-making process, and the sooner the better.

"The problems". But what are the problems? "The machines (...) are not up to the task (...)" Ok. Now we know that. What next? "More humans must be added to the decision-making process".

No! A thousand times no! Don't touch information, don't shape the stream! 4chan exists, and is made of people! And you want to have PEOPLE (not the same ones, but also prone to their own rituals and biases) to moderate the stream to the outside world! There are a lot of voices in every controversial (and controversial varies a lot) source, 4chan is one of them! And the solution is to make the stream as one sided as possible, neutered, comfortable only to some?

We hold two things in your hands:

1) mind can believe and say pretty much anything

2) internet connects everything: basements to penthouses to marketing departments to psyops operatives to deep swampy lands full of dark terrors to your children

Lets ignore that, pick a select few and filter the stream. And guess what, there's a bit of swamp in all of us. [2]

After what seems like a troll comment here[0], here's a comeback from a concerned citizen:

> you're aware it's unwise to make those kinds of statements on the Web? Especially when you "Work" for a university?

This is how seriously people take the internet. And the solution is to keep out the weirdos. Or ask them to keep the weirdness inside. Good thing we (the writer of the article) are in charge. Let's just clean up google and social media. Because that is the full extent of the internet. The swamp will disappear as soon as we cleanup google, and the children are safe again.

Google and facebook are doing just fine. We are failing to build defenses for this globalism of the mind.

[0]: https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/02/how-reports-from-4chan-on-...

[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/5xdacv/what_i...

[2]: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/548087-no-tree-it-is-said-c...

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#77
Reddit and 4chan had more informative information quicker than all the news outlets.

They did not mislead me on anything about the incident. (They did have misleading comments that were easy to ignore)

Sorry, but just because there are dumb people in the world why should my results on Goolge be censored.

It's also bullshit, 4chan is very well know as a poor source and looks nothing like a newspaper so the concept it would be mistaken for a fact based news outlet shows more how dumb the writer and people with this belief are more than anything else.

This writer is so superior they have to save us dummies from facebook groups and 4chan? I find it insulting.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#78
post #11

I think there's already too much filtering. People need to make up their own minds regarding what is true and what isn't, what's worth their time and what's bullshit, which links to click on and which to avoid. If people can't handle this then we need to spend more money on education, or just accept that some people disagree with us. I don't think aggressively filtering "untrustworthy" content will lead to a net bene…

I think at this stage it's like insisting that people filter their own water when there are organisations out there actively dumping toxic waste into it.

It's not just the Internet though, it's organisations like Infowars who are out there claiming that the Vegas shooting was some kind of "false flag", after his previous disinformation on the Sandy Hook incident.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#79
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> into a spot that many users believe is fairly authoritative I mean that's the real issue. You can't be unbiased while trying to be a source of truth. You can be impartial and return results based on relevancy or you can intervene in an attempt to return the truth. Google has ventured into dangerous territory by mixing the two -- especially with their automatic snippets that answer questions. > There is only figurin…

> You can be impartial and return results based on relevancy I don't think that's possible. Take a search for "Las Vegas shooting". What is the impartial process for deciding the most relevant result for that? Relevance is inherently editorial.

We’re almost certainly witnessing the endgame to the 1990s boom of Silicon Valley. Google, Facebook and other content platforms will be regulated for impartiality, particularly around political speech. It doesn’t make sense to let Twitter, Facebook et al become private censors, and it’s clear that people retweet faster than they think.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#80
If we all such smart people/techies, can we spitball a better breaking news feed algorithm into existence?

I'll kick it off -

1. Focus all news on Who? What? When? Where? Omit the "Why?".

2. When in doubt cite the primary news sources (police feeds/courtrooms/local authorities/opposition leaders/pictures/geo tagged and timestamped audio&video feeds with geo tags)

3. Secondary news sources like news orgs and journalist videos are second in importance

4. Quote tertiary news outlets like Reddit/HN/4chan only when they can be cross verified with a primary source

More suggestions?

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