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Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

theatlantic.com

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Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#21

Post by int_19h »

mythrwy wrote: post #6
folksinger wrote: post #5

The reason why those of us on this forum can tell the difference between good and bad information is because we received a good education and learned critical analysis skills. Facebook, Google and the internet in general are an objectively bad source of knowledge. They are subjectively good sources of knowledge. The vast majority of people do not have the skills to use the internet as a source for good knowledge. The…

"The vast majority of people do not have the skills to use the internet as a source for good knowledge." And this is known how? The aristocracy considers the people ignorant and prefers it that way, but history shows this is not always objectively so. The ideas of freedom of information, of freedom of expression are repugnant to the aristocrat (who always consider they know best), but these are founding principals of…

> The ideas of freedom of information, of freedom of expression are repugnant to the aristocrat (who always consider they know best), but these are founding principals of so far the most innovative and productive societies history has known.

I'm not entirely sure this is true. Before Internet, what we had was mostly freedom of the press - which is to say, the freedom to spread information (or disinformation) by those with financial means to do so. This is far more free than the preceding eras of widespread censorship, where the only one spreading information (or disinformation) was the government and its agents. But it's not quite a free for all. In effect, the ability to spread information on a large scale was still restricted to the "elite", defined in financial terms.

Internet, and especially social networks with their graphs, changed that. A little money, and a carefully crafted story, go a long way in terms of dispersal and effect. Big money still gives you more opportunities, but even small players can make a difference. And we've yet to see the full effect that this is going to have on our societies.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#22

Post by petepete »

trgv wrote: post #11

I think there's already too much filtering. People need to make up their own minds regarding what is true and what isn't, what's worth their time and what's bullshit, which links to click on and which to avoid. If people can't handle this then we need to spend more money on education, or just accept that some people disagree with us. I don't think aggressively filtering "untrustworthy" content will lead to a net bene…

> People need to make up their own minds regarding what is true and what isn't

We kind of tried that with religion and people still persist in believing all kinds of stuff

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#23

Post by electricEmu »

partisan wrote: post #16
throwaway2048 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These kinds of statements seem deep and meaingful, but ultimately they are vaccuous. The only reason any market entity exists is because people buy things from them, its the buyers fault. The only reason corrupt governments exist is because the people elect them, or at the very least don't overthrow them, its the governed's fault. Its a stupid oversimplication that places all the blame on the giant, vauge, and futile…

I am speaking specifically about this particular article and the topic it is covering. Whatever assumptions you used to arrive at your conclusions were introduced by the story you wanted to tell. I'd rather you didn't extrapolate from what I wrote. Ask me nicely and I will tell you why fixing Facebook and Google are not the answer.

The original replier doesn't sound as if they're extropolating to me. You're also telling a story, and shouldn't be the only one in the conversation to do so.

> Over time, the noise is stripped away and what we get is the official narrative and that is one we can "count" on.

I'd ask why fixing Facebook or Google isn't the answer, but that would play into _your_ extropolating narrative. Instead, why shouldn't Google and Facebook be responsible, and held accountable, for posting absolutely fake news automatically? It's not a "firehose" or "unsubstantiated" information, it's projected as "news".

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#24

Post by mc32 »

Google is more a conduit of news rather than a gatekeeper. FB is both a gatekeeper and a conduit to news as well as a news producer (since it pays or underwrites some orgs to produce news for it).

That said, I think The Atlantic is wrong in placing blame on Google when they themselves engage in questionable journalism (clickbait as well as often biased news-source).

There is no way we're going to come up with something "objectively truthful" because, news as it exists today is not about facts. It's journalism and journalism has always been about putting a slant on things --quoting unauthoritative sources ("man named Joe claims," etc.) loose factchecking, and more. All to sell more news (packaged with ads or for subscriptions, where you don't want to alienate your subscriber "base".

This is an attempted landgrab by establishment news orgs to corner what is news. They want to be the only sanctioned sources of news and punish alternative sources --using an obvious outlier to promote their pov.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#25

Post by davidjsevans »

jordigh wrote: post #18
folksinger wrote: post #5

The reason why those of us on this forum can tell the difference between good and bad information is because we received a good education and learned critical analysis skills. Facebook, Google and the internet in general are an objectively bad source of knowledge. They are subjectively good sources of knowledge. The vast majority of people do not have the skills to use the internet as a source for good knowledge. The…

> The reason why those of us on this forum can tell the difference between good and bad information is because we received a good education and learned critical analysis skills. We really need to stop congratulating ourselves on how smart we are and we would never fall for such blatant lies, because we are such highly-educated critical thinkers. There are a bunch of silly beliefs that we witness even amongst us like…

What evidence do you have that gender parity in tech (I assume you mean engineering roles) is good and/or natural? The scientific evidence seems to suggest to me that widespread gender disparity in many fields is natural.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#26

Post by reissbaker »

Not 100% surprising that journalists would view the machines that have wrested control of the news from them with hostility. Facebook definitely could use improvements, and it sounds like Google's search ranking in these rare kinds of situations could too, but the vitriol here — and the suggestion to replace machine ranking with ... surprise, journalists! — makes it seem like the "Us" who've been failed by ranking algorithms might specifically refer to The Atlantic.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#27

Post by mc32 »

trgv wrote: post #11

I think there's already too much filtering. People need to make up their own minds regarding what is true and what isn't, what's worth their time and what's bullshit, which links to click on and which to avoid. If people can't handle this then we need to spend more money on education, or just accept that some people disagree with us. I don't think aggressively filtering "untrustworthy" content will lead to a net bene…

As I posted elsewhere on this thread, journalism isn't exactly about the straight facts. It's always more about story and slant related to facts, sometimes more loosely than others.

For example, it will take a lot of time for investigators to get close to the truth of what happened but no one is going to wait for official reports before publishing their takes on the incident --and I'm not nor would expect that. But we also can't very well expect only objective truth to be present in news stories/articles.

Should Google FB do a better job a filtering obviously bogus information? Sure. Should they only source from a "pool" of sources in the era of citizen journalism? I don't think I want to cede that to news orgs who want to perpetuate their aura as the only legitimate purveyors of news.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#28

Post by intopieces »

pdonis wrote: post #3

tl/dr: We don't think people are capable of exercising judgment, so we want the computers at Google and Facebook to do it for them. Good luck with that.

It's not that they are incapable of exercising judgement. It's that when they do exercise judgement, it is consistently towards bad content. False content.

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#29

Post by paulddraper »

petepete wrote: post #22
trgv wrote: post #11

I think there's already too much filtering. People need to make up their own minds regarding what is true and what isn't, what's worth their time and what's bullshit, which links to click on and which to avoid. If people can't handle this then we need to spend more money on education, or just accept that some people disagree with us. I don't think aggressively filtering "untrustworthy" content will lead to a net bene…

> People need to make up their own minds regarding what is true and what isn't We kind of tried that with religion and people still persist in believing all kinds of stuff

So?

Re: Google and Facebook Have Failed Us

#30

Post by partisan »

electricEmu wrote: post #23
partisan wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am speaking specifically about this particular article and the topic it is covering. Whatever assumptions you used to arrive at your conclusions were introduced by the story you wanted to tell. I'd rather you didn't extrapolate from what I wrote. Ask me nicely and I will tell you why fixing Facebook and Google are not the answer.

The original replier doesn't sound as if they're extropolating to me. You're also telling a story, and shouldn't be the only one in the conversation to do so. > Over time, the noise is stripped away and what we get is the official narrative and that is one we can "count" on. I'd ask why fixing Facebook or Google isn't the answer, but that would play into _your_ extropolating narrative. Instead, why shouldn't Google a…

You've simply restated the problem. Why not contribute to the discussion?

How would you fix Google and Facebook? How would you hold them responsible and accountable? And why?

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