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Ask HN: Choosing a Python framework for web development?

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Re: Ask HN: Choosing a Python framework for web development?

#21

Post by inklesspen »

astrec wrote: post #16
inklesspen wrote: post #9

I prefer Pylons for many reasons. One of them is that SQLAlchemy is the single most powerful SQL library I've ever used, and Pylons makes it easy to use SQLAlchemy, while Django doesn't. This is just one example of Django's reluctance to use superior outside solutions.

Actually there has been a SQLAlchemy branch for over a year. Last I check it had stagnated - not enough interest.

It's a wonder why, when Django's form validation and admin panels require the Django ORM, and last I heard, using the SQLAlchemy branch required extra work.

Re: Ask HN: Choosing a Python framework for web development?

#22

Post by kashif »

nostrademons wrote: post #2

Start with Django unless you have a very good reason to use one of the other ones. Very good reasons include 1.) Previous skills with Mako, SQLAlchemy, Paste, or any of the other libraries that Pylons or Turbogears is based upon. 2.) Previous code in one of the above libraries 3.) Functionality needs that Django cannot satisfy in at least a couple of the following areas: authentication, user models, multiple database…

When I started hacking in Python which was over a year ago, I started with Django. That was a mistake because Django has too much magic which leaves the newbie clueless - I switched to Pylons and it has always felt right. Additionally Pylons has allowed me the necessary space to grow my skills and the Pylons apps I build now are very customized.

That was my experience - I think you should try out Django, Pylons and a few other frameworks to see what suits your style.

Re: Ask HN: Choosing a Python framework for web development?

#25

Post by mrtron »

kashif wrote: post #22
nostrademons wrote: post #2

Start with Django unless you have a very good reason to use one of the other ones. Very good reasons include 1.) Previous skills with Mako, SQLAlchemy, Paste, or any of the other libraries that Pylons or Turbogears is based upon. 2.) Previous code in one of the above libraries 3.) Functionality needs that Django cannot satisfy in at least a couple of the following areas: authentication, user models, multiple database…

When I started hacking in Python which was over a year ago, I started with Django. That was a mistake because Django has too much magic which leaves the newbie clueless - I switched to Pylons and it has always felt right. Additionally Pylons has allowed me the necessary space to grow my skills and the Pylons apps I build now are very customized. That was my experience - I think you should try out Django, Pylons and a…

Django contains almost no magic...they intentionally removed anything like this after I think 0.95?

What is an example of this magic?

Re: Ask HN: Choosing a Python framework for web development?

#26

Post by jedberg »

nostrademons wrote: post #2

Start with Django unless you have a very good reason to use one of the other ones. Very good reasons include 1.) Previous skills with Mako, SQLAlchemy, Paste, or any of the other libraries that Pylons or Turbogears is based upon. 2.) Previous code in one of the above libraries 3.) Functionality needs that Django cannot satisfy in at least a couple of the following areas: authentication, user models, multiple database…

> 2.) "It's not scalable enough." The Washington Post runs on Django; I doubt you're going to get more pageviews than them.

Just FYI, the Washington Post does not use Django for their main page. They only use it for small side projects.

At reddit we tried to use Django, but had to switch to Pylons because, lo and behold, it wasn't scalable. Specifically, it has a problem caching templates under high loads.

Re: Ask HN: Choosing a Python framework for web development?

#27

Post by nostrademons »

kashif wrote: post #22
nostrademons wrote: post #2

Start with Django unless you have a very good reason to use one of the other ones. Very good reasons include 1.) Previous skills with Mako, SQLAlchemy, Paste, or any of the other libraries that Pylons or Turbogears is based upon. 2.) Previous code in one of the above libraries 3.) Functionality needs that Django cannot satisfy in at least a couple of the following areas: authentication, user models, multiple database…

When I started hacking in Python which was over a year ago, I started with Django. That was a mistake because Django has too much magic which leaves the newbie clueless - I switched to Pylons and it has always felt right. Additionally Pylons has allowed me the necessary space to grow my skills and the Pylons apps I build now are very customized. That was my experience - I think you should try out Django, Pylons and a…

As mrtron points out, most of the magic was removed fairly recently, and modern Django code is fairly intuitive. I also first looked around Jan 2007, and discounted Django because there was too much magic. But I took a second look in Dec 2007 and it was much, much better.

Re: Ask HN: Choosing a Python framework for web development?

#28

Post by nostrademons »

jedberg wrote: post #26
nostrademons wrote: post #2

Start with Django unless you have a very good reason to use one of the other ones. Very good reasons include 1.) Previous skills with Mako, SQLAlchemy, Paste, or any of the other libraries that Pylons or Turbogears is based upon. 2.) Previous code in one of the above libraries 3.) Functionality needs that Django cannot satisfy in at least a couple of the following areas: authentication, user models, multiple database…

> 2.) "It's not scalable enough." The Washington Post runs on Django; I doubt you're going to get more pageviews than them. Just FYI, the Washington Post does not use Django for their main page. They only use it for small side projects. At reddit we tried to use Django, but had to switch to Pylons because, lo and behold, it wasn't scalable. Specifically, it has a problem caching templates under high loads.

Interesting...that's very helpful to know. Did you try memcached? I've heard Pownce has been doing just fine with Django + memcached, and they get a decent amount of traffic.

Re: Ask HN: Choosing a Python framework for web development?

#29

Post by astrec »

inklesspen wrote: post #21
astrec wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there has been a SQLAlchemy branch for over a year. Last I check it had stagnated - not enough interest.

It's a wonder why, when Django's form validation and admin panels require the Django ORM, and last I heard, using the SQLAlchemy branch required extra work.

The SQLAlchemy branch was intended to seamlessly integrate with the model api - in other words you needn't know it was there. I don't think it got too far.

Form validation is not tied to the Django ORM.

Re: Ask HN: Choosing a Python framework for web development?

#30

Post by inklesspen »

astrec wrote: post #29
inklesspen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a wonder why, when Django's form validation and admin panels require the Django ORM, and last I heard, using the SQLAlchemy branch required extra work.

The SQLAlchemy branch was intended to seamlessly integrate with the model api - in other words you needn't know it was there. I don't think it got too far. Form validation is not tied to the Django ORM.

That's funny, because when I was going through the newforms code, it had a lot of ties to the ORM.
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