Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#91

Post by farresito » Mon, Oct 02, 2017, 3:27 PM UTC

lacaza wrote: post #72

farresito wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only two autonomous communities I could see leaving are Catalonia and Basque Country. Madrid, despite being rich, has many more privileges than Catalonia. What makes you think less than 15% of people voted? Did you by any chance get these numbers from the extremely objective and impartial newspapers abc, el mundo, or la razon? I don't feel like arguing at 3am, so I will leave it at that, but reading things like o…

More privileges? Madrid has a higher gdp per capita but a lower gpd (fewer people), despite of having a lower gdp they contribute with twice the money: http://m.eldiario.es/politica/Madrid-deficit-fiscal-millones... (Leftist source) What makes me think about the real percentage of people that voted is not any newspaper but things like this: https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016 https://twitter.co…

(I did not downvote you, for the record) Don't feel bad for offending me. I have been getting easily triggered quite a bit lately due to the lack of objectiveness of a lot of the Spanish media (you could say the same about Catalan media). I shouldn't really talk in these threads to be honest.

It's true that Madrid is richer, but they also have, for example, the privilege of being the capital of Spain, which naturally helps with their economy.

Regarding the multiple votes, I could also add that other people tried[1] voting twice and weren't allowed. That is not to say that it wasn't possible at certain places, but I think that stating that less than 15% of the real population voted when the released data said that more than two million IDs were registered electronically is a bit ingenuous. Furthermore, TVE, the Spanish national TV channels, manipulated data and were really biased, as stated by multiple journalists working there[2].

[1] https://twitter.com/orioldebalanzo/status/914526879582998528.

[2] https://twitter.com/vanesabenedicto/status/91448136228718592...

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#92

Post by lacaza » Mon, Oct 02, 2017, 3:58 PM UTC

farresito wrote: post #91

lacaza wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More privileges? Madrid has a higher gdp per capita but a lower gpd (fewer people), despite of having a lower gdp they contribute with twice the money: http://m.eldiario.es/politica/Madrid-deficit-fiscal-millones... (Leftist source) What makes me think about the real percentage of people that voted is not any newspaper but things like this: https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016 https://twitter.co…

(I did not downvote you, for the record) Don't feel bad for offending me. I have been getting easily triggered quite a bit lately due to the lack of objectiveness of a lot of the Spanish media (you could say the same about Catalan media). I shouldn't really talk in these threads to be honest. It's true that Madrid is richer, but they also have, for example, the privilege of being the capital of Spain, which naturally…

I agree with you on the media being biased (by both sides). But I don't think this should be about the numbers. I only stated that percentage to make clear the point that there was no census and multiple ways to hack the polls...

In any case, my arguments apply wether that percentage is 15 or 50. Also, I believe we shouldn't differentiate between regions that could have the privilege of voting and regions who wouldn't have it (specially when the reasons aren't solid) , it just intensifies the feeling of false superiority and xenophobia between different populations.

I could agree on the possibility of self determination for any region (or city), but I'd like people to think a little bit more about what that could mean in the long term and if that's something good for the world overall.

Sorry again if I was too arrogant, I fully respect your love for your hometown and your people.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#93

Post by Y7ZCQtNo39 » Mon, Oct 02, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

hjrnunes wrote: post #83

Y7ZCQtNo39 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The optics (at the moment) seem to be the most important issue here. Whether or not the vote is legitimate is quite irrelevant in immediate aftermath. This is a government using physical force against its citizens for, of all things, voting -- a core democratic principle. Democracy must be tolerant of peaceful protesting. An "illegal" vote (depending who's lens we are viewing this from), to me, is a form of peaceful…

It wasn't the government. Spain has separation of powers. The courts declared the action illegal and directed the police to end it. The organisers knew of the court's decision and still went ahead. That is reckless. If they wanted to protest they could've organised demonstrations and protests - which are perfectly allowed in Spain.

It seems like the federal government had an issue with the local government. Your average citizen wasn't responsible for coordinating the voting effort -- those were public dollars. So why were the citizens held responsible for the local government's behavior? If the Spanish government was going to use physical force, it wasn't the Catalan citizen's fault for showing up to the polls -- it was the Catalan government.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#94

Post by farresito » Mon, Oct 02, 2017, 9:09 PM UTC

lacaza wrote: post #92

farresito wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I did not downvote you, for the record) Don't feel bad for offending me. I have been getting easily triggered quite a bit lately due to the lack of objectiveness of a lot of the Spanish media (you could say the same about Catalan media). I shouldn't really talk in these threads to be honest. It's true that Madrid is richer, but they also have, for example, the privilege of being the capital of Spain, which naturally…

I agree with you on the media being biased (by both sides). But I don't think this should be about the numbers. I only stated that percentage to make clear the point that there was no census and multiple ways to hack the polls... In any case, my arguments apply wether that percentage is 15 or 50. Also, I believe we shouldn't differentiate between regions that could have the privilege of voting and regions who wouldn'…

I think a lot of non-Catalans have the perception (perhaps portrayed by the media) that we dislike Spain or the people, but frankly, the big issue is that we are fed up with the government (and certain branches of the govt.), probably like a large amount of Spaniards, with the difference being that we are able to express it through the pro-independence movement, which has always existed, though admittedly it had never been close to as strong as it is nowadays, and which allows us to put much more pressure into the govt. for changes. There is no hate at all; we just want the best for our land, like everyone. It's good that parties like Podemos have been growing, even if one doesn't feel identified with their ideals, because it shows that people are fed up with the situation.

Thank you for the kind words. Likewise to you <3.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#95

Post by RandVal30142 » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 3:34 AM UTC

pako_crack wrote: post #88

RandVal30142 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dare beating firemen for voting is more illegal than holding a vote itself, let alone attending/partaking in it. The use of violence by the state forfeits such claims and opens up an avenue for reciprocation by others, which is a terrible thing to enable all due to a vote. >that constitution doesn't hold weight in real life We will see what carries more weight, violence or paper.

Beware of fake news here too. That picture of firemen fighting back is from years ago, when they were protesting against local police (Catalan one).

Oh. Seems I completely failed my part at reversing the images I browsed. That is my bad.