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Las Vegas Shooting Kills More Than 50

nytimes.com

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Re: Las Vegas Shooting Kills More Than 50

#21

Post by ericfrederich »

Sandorie wrote: post #7
taytus wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Courage. If nothing happened after Sandy Hook, nothing will happen unless someone really decides that enough is enough.

But what exactly is enough? Unless we have a solution to this horrendous problem, the current state of affairs will not subside. Just shouting “ban assult rifles” will not solve the problem. We need an elaborte plan reasoned by principle rather than by analogy.

The right would say this wouldn't be a problem if more people had guns to defend themselves with. An idiotic argument for sure especially given the details of this current attack (32 stories up... far away, etc).

Even if this happened at an NRA rally or gun show they'd come up with some other excuse.

Re: Las Vegas Shooting Kills More Than 50

#22

Post by notacoward »

hahamrfunnyguy wrote: post #3

What does it take for something to be done about these mass shootings that just keep happening?

Declare the NRA a terrorist organization.

Before people misunderstand, I'm not saying we should get rid of all guns or anything like that. They do have plenty of legitimate uses. What I'm saying is that the NRA specifically represents terrorists better than they represent most gun owners. Their absolutist position, rejecting any and all restrictions on guns and ammunition, is not representative of most gun owners. All it has done, over and over, is to enable the worst kinds of crazies to bring unreasonable amounts of firepower to places where it doesn't belong. For example, it should be practically impossible to bring eight long weapons and hundreds of rounds into a hotel unless you can prove you're military or law enforcement. Where, short of that, should one draw the line? That's a reasonable discussion to have, but it can't occur as long as the NRA gets a seat - and the most influential one at that - at the table. They need to be shut out, so that reasonable people can get on with reasonable discussion about how to stop these atrocities.

Re: Las Vegas Shooting Kills More Than 50

#23

Post by true_religion »

notacoward wrote: post #22
hahamrfunnyguy wrote: post #3

What does it take for something to be done about these mass shootings that just keep happening?

Declare the NRA a terrorist organization. Before people misunderstand, I'm not saying we should get rid of all guns or anything like that. They do have plenty of legitimate uses. What I'm saying is that the NRA specifically represents terrorists better than they represent most gun owners. Their absolutist position, rejecting any and all restrictions on guns and ammunition, is not representative of most gun owners. Al…

The NRA represents their membership, not all gun-owners everywhere.

> it should be practically impossible to bring eight long weapons and hundreds of rounds

How would one make it 'practically impossible'? I think most people agree that we would like to ensure day-to-day safety, but the disagreement is "at what cost"?

The NRA defends against removing a constitutional protection against tyranny, simply because might access weaponry.

Re: Las Vegas Shooting Kills More Than 50

#24

Post by true_religion »

mcphage wrote: post #15
nvahalik wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem is people. You can talk about gun control all you want but evil is a people problem—not a gun problem.

No, the real problem is mass shootings. Evil may be a people problem, but mass shootings are an American problem.

It's said that mass shootings have more to due with media hype giving rise to copycats over the generations. If mass shootings were not 'national' news, but confined to the areas of people they actually affected then we would have much fewer of them.

Re: Las Vegas Shooting Kills More Than 50

#25

Post by reitanqild »

notacoward wrote: post #22
hahamrfunnyguy wrote: post #3

What does it take for something to be done about these mass shootings that just keep happening?

Declare the NRA a terrorist organization. Before people misunderstand, I'm not saying we should get rid of all guns or anything like that. They do have plenty of legitimate uses. What I'm saying is that the NRA specifically represents terrorists better than they represent most gun owners. Their absolutist position, rejecting any and all restrictions on guns and ammunition, is not representative of most gun owners. Al…

> Declare the NRA a terrorist organization.

Terrorism is well defined and NRA for all it's flaws is not a terrorist organization.

Re: Las Vegas Shooting Kills More Than 50

#26

Post by notacoward »

true_religion wrote: post #23
notacoward wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Declare the NRA a terrorist organization. Before people misunderstand, I'm not saying we should get rid of all guns or anything like that. They do have plenty of legitimate uses. What I'm saying is that the NRA specifically represents terrorists better than they represent most gun owners. Their absolutist position, rejecting any and all restrictions on guns and ammunition, is not representative of most gun owners. Al…

The NRA represents their membership, not all gun-owners everywhere. > it should be practically impossible to bring eight long weapons and hundreds of rounds How would one make it 'practically impossible'? I think most people agree that we would like to ensure day-to-day safety, but the disagreement is "at what cost"? The NRA defends against removing a constitutional protection against tyranny, simply because might ac…

> How would one make it 'practically impossible'?

I can think of two fairly simple measures.

(1) His weapons should have been inspected on entry to the hotel, to ensure not only legality but condition and unloaded state as well. In this case, that would have resulted in them being flagged as illegal full-auto conversions.

(2) Ammunition should have been stored separately, in the lobby or the basement, in total accordance with what responsible gun owners already recognize as best practice.

With these two measures in place, he might have been able to do some damage, but a semi-auto and one magazine would not have led to the kind of result we actually saw.

> The NRA defends against removing a constitutional protection against tyranny

The NRA does no such thing. The measures they support or oppose would make no difference if the day ever came when we needed to defend against tyrants commanding a military with modern weapons and training. If you look at the paramilitaries that the NRA enables, it would even be fair to say that they're promoting the tools of tyranny.

Re: Las Vegas Shooting Kills More Than 50

#27

Post by reitanqild »

mcphage wrote: post #15
nvahalik wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem is people. You can talk about gun control all you want but evil is a people problem—not a gun problem.

No, the real problem is mass shootings. Evil may be a people problem, but mass shootings are an American problem.

Here's my attempt at a rational explanation. Feel free to point out flaws.

> No, the real problem is mass shootings.

I think we should talk about mass killings not mass shootings.

Yes US has had a lot of mass shootings but it seems you have avoided the concentration camps and the Srebrenica etc that Europe has experienced during the last hundred years.

When people don’t have guns it is much easier to round them up and kill them.

Most people who have got killed seems to have been killed by their own authorities or invaders, not neighbours.

Re: Las Vegas Shooting Kills More Than 50

#28

Post by daleco »

notacoward wrote: post #26
true_religion wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NRA represents their membership, not all gun-owners everywhere. > it should be practically impossible to bring eight long weapons and hundreds of rounds How would one make it 'practically impossible'? I think most people agree that we would like to ensure day-to-day safety, but the disagreement is "at what cost"? The NRA defends against removing a constitutional protection against tyranny, simply because might ac…

> How would one make it 'practically impossible'? I can think of two fairly simple measures. (1) His weapons should have been inspected on entry to the hotel, to ensure not only legality but condition and unloaded state as well. In this case, that would have resulted in them being flagged as illegal full-auto conversions. (2) Ammunition should have been stored separately, in the lobby or the basement, in total accord…

Do you mean that we would need metal detectors at every single hotels? And get your luggages inspected? This is not feasible.

Re: Las Vegas Shooting Kills More Than 50

#29

Post by notacoward »

daleco wrote: post #28
notacoward wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would one make it 'practically impossible'? I can think of two fairly simple measures. (1) His weapons should have been inspected on entry to the hotel, to ensure not only legality but condition and unloaded state as well. In this case, that would have resulted in them being flagged as illegal full-auto conversions. (2) Ammunition should have been stored separately, in the lobby or the basement, in total accord…

Do you mean that we would need metal detectors at every single hotels? And get your luggages inspected? This is not feasible.

Have you ever traveled to another country? It might change your perspective on what's feasible and what's not. It's politically infeasible here because of groups like the NRA, but it's perfectly feasible in terms of logistics and any normal perception of rights. Remember, hotels are private property. Any owner of private property should have the right to exclude or limit dangerous items on that property. Any reasonable owner of a high-rise hotel might exercise that right, and any who don't could be considered accessories to acts like these.

Re: Las Vegas Shooting Kills More Than 50

#30

Post by pjc50 »

true_religion wrote: post #23
notacoward wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Declare the NRA a terrorist organization. Before people misunderstand, I'm not saying we should get rid of all guns or anything like that. They do have plenty of legitimate uses. What I'm saying is that the NRA specifically represents terrorists better than they represent most gun owners. Their absolutist position, rejecting any and all restrictions on guns and ammunition, is not representative of most gun owners. Al…

The NRA represents their membership, not all gun-owners everywhere. > it should be practically impossible to bring eight long weapons and hundreds of rounds How would one make it 'practically impossible'? I think most people agree that we would like to ensure day-to-day safety, but the disagreement is "at what cost"? The NRA defends against removing a constitutional protection against tyranny, simply because might ac…

> constitutional protection against tyranny

The idea of a right to armed revolution is the whole problem. This is indistinguishable from terrorism.

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