Live data from Hacker News

Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

news.sky.com

91–100 of 118 posts

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#91
post #40
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is just a convenient data grab and profiteering. I know people working on this project, and that is absolutely not their motivation. They want to better understand the movement of people within the system, so they can design better stations, trains, and services. The traditional way of understanding such passenger movements is by parking students with clipboards and people-counters all around stations, doing p…

The point that this will be only used to improve services was denied in the article itself: "What they told people at the time was we're going to use this data to improve services. But now thanks to [Sky News] investigative reporting, we find out that it's partly to improve the services, but also it's to exploit people's data for revenue, doing advertising."

Knowing more accurate footfall counts down individual corridors is essential for better planning of stations and services. And yes, it's also a boon to pricing advertising along those corridors. No way to improve one without improving the other.

But that's literally all they're getting from this: spatially granular and accurate passenger movements. They're not collecting personally identifiable data or even aggregated demographic metadata. Just footfall counts. (Read their policies: they just collect device MAC data, which is hashed with a salt that is destroyed on a daily basis. This allows them to trace MAC addresses through the network without ever being able to trace it to an individual.) But, yes, those footfall counts are relevant to advertisers. So? TFL isn't a profit-making organisation: everything they get from advertising is re-invested in operations and new infrastructure.

Anyhow, you're trusting them with your life when you ride they're vehicles. They do a pretty good job with that. Trusting them with fleeting awareness of your MAC address seems like a much smaller ask.

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to login to the TFL WiFi using your Virgin Media or supported phone network's login, so they can identify you by that instead.

Is that just if you want signal under ground, or is having WiFi turned on a requirement for riding Tfl?

If you want to use their wifi :)

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just gave me the first real use for 3D Touch since I got my 6S. Thanks! On the subject, one swipe + one press using control center is really much faster than finding the settings app. For me it takes at least six actions to get to the switch: press home twice, open a folder, scroll, open settings, click wifi). Even if you keep settings in your home screen that's at least four clicks/touches away.

It’s completely contrived one has to have 3D Touch to access such a basic thing now. There is a long press context, with plenty of space in the expanded area for the same setting.

For a minor shortcut? It really only saves you an extra tap or two.

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#94
post #90

That is a pretty misleading headline - this isn't asking to see their text messages or something like that; It's just tracking when and where a MAC address is seen in order to work out traffic trends. In fact some of the data looks really interesting: https://imgur.com/Hx6mDSm.jpg (credit to bcraven for the link) Most large public WiFi deploys come with this capability already included (albeit normally with an additi…

I understood them to offer wifi service and track its use, but maybe I was reading too much into it. The revenue was discussed as coming from targeted advertising implying tracking of data usage. I'm skeptical for a different reason: all they're going to see is a bunch of connections to facebook servers which will all look alike. /s

"Targeted advertising" in the sense of real-world, physical targeting. Like, where should adverts be placed in the station to maximise exposure.

That doesn't require and collection of data, and they have explicitly ruled out doing such collection.

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#95
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realise this is a government body that runs public transport, right? Public transport which is notoriously bad at making profits, all around the world. Sorry, but this comes across as a bit of a silly conspiracy theory, by people who can't be bothered doing basic research.

Is not-for-profit not superflous on a government body supplying 50% of it's income? Who pays for the 6 figure board salaries? Is that from the profit part, or me the tax payer? Just seems a bit stretched. never-gonna-profit

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/how-we-work/corporate...

"Remuneration of board members

The basic fee is £16,000 per annum. Additional fees are paid for each appointment to a Committee or Panel, up to a maximum payment of £20,000 per annum"

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/how-we-work/how-we-ar...

25% of their funding seems to come from Government grants. £2.6 billion. That should be covered easy by the tax revenue London generates.

Especially so, since there's apparently a £26.5 billion tax surplus that goes out the capital to less well off regions: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/23/uk-budget-d...

So what are you complaining about exactly?

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't Android and iOS randomize the MAC addr these days? Are they investing in something that's going to have a very short life?

You need to login to the TFL WiFi using your Virgin Media or supported phone network's login, so they can identify you by that instead.

Yes, but this is easy to opt-out from. Naturally, this is not what they are doing:

> At the end of 2016, TfL ran a pilot which tracked the Wi-Fi signals from 5.6 million phones as people moved around the London Underground, even if they weren't connected to a Wi-Fi network.

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#97

I'm actually happy about this. The data that has been collected is great ( http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf ) and not realistically available in any other way. The only data stored is (hashed) MAC and timestamp. It's taking place on a system where most users are already tracked semi-anonymously using contactless cards or Oyster cards, and is trivially avoidable by disabling wifi. This seems like a…

Yup, I'm happy with it. Can't see how else you would get this amazing data which is obviously going to be extremely helpful for managing an increasingly overcrowded train system.

Even the article says they're using this to assess the value of advertising spots, rather than some of the more nefarious things that _could_ be done with this technology.

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#98
post #2

Why do they need to do this? They already track people with Oyster and contactless which gives them journey information. This is just a convenient data grab and profiteering. I'm going to sound old and curmudgeonly here, but I'm starting to miss the days when we bought paper tickets with cash.

> Why do they need to do this?

This is explained in detail here:

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf

If you would rather buy a paper ticket with cash you can still do that, and you won't be tracked if you put your phone into wireless mode. Personally I'm happy for them to collect limited amounts of data, with restraint, if that means they can improve the effectiveness of the network. But if you're not, that's understandable, and it's not that difficult to avoid it.

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they don't know where people go on the system. All they know where you entered and exited.

I don't quite believe this because they could have additional readers set up that can read at a distance.

How would tracking the Oyster card ID that's registered to my name, address, and credit card # in their system be an improvement compared to tracking the hashed MAC address of my phone?
Post reply on HN