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Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

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Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#21

Post by nkoren »

cjsuk wrote: post #2

Why do they need to do this? They already track people with Oyster and contactless which gives them journey information. This is just a convenient data grab and profiteering. I'm going to sound old and curmudgeonly here, but I'm starting to miss the days when we bought paper tickets with cash.

> This is just a convenient data grab and profiteering.

I know people working on this project, and that is absolutely not their motivation. They want to better understand the movement of people within the system, so they can design better stations, trains, and services.

The traditional way of understanding such passenger movements is by parking students with clipboards and people-counters all around stations, doing passenger interviews and such. This traditional methodology is not only hugely expensive, but the data it generates is spectacularly bad, and has lead to some incredibly poor planning at times.

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#22

Post by titzer »

nkoren wrote: post #21
cjsuk wrote: post #2

Why do they need to do this? They already track people with Oyster and contactless which gives them journey information. This is just a convenient data grab and profiteering. I'm going to sound old and curmudgeonly here, but I'm starting to miss the days when we bought paper tickets with cash.

> This is just a convenient data grab and profiteering. I know people working on this project, and that is absolutely not their motivation. They want to better understand the movement of people within the system, so they can design better stations, trains, and services. The traditional way of understanding such passenger movements is by parking students with clipboards and people-counters all around stations, doing p…

> I know people working on this project, and that is absolutely not their motivation.

It doesn't really matter the motivation if the system that gets built in the end has the same vulnerabilities and potential for abuse.

Attitudes change, and history shows us that governments have a bad track record for sticking to original motivations. Companies are even worse, once they realize the profit potential of something.

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#23

Post by Sephiroth87 »

Matt3o12_ wrote: post #9
shimfish wrote: post #7

Does anyone know if the iPhone's MAC randomization has any effect on this?

As far as I know, the iPhone only randomizes its MAC address after the device has been locked for two minutes and not connected to any known networks. Two things that are very unlikely to happen in a subway. One of the advantages of riding the subway is that you can use a phone and the other one is that there is rarely any cell connection (at least in my subway), so you need WiFi anyways. WiFi randomization is great…

It's only unlikely to happen if you actively connect to the tube wifi, otherwise it works as expected, my phone will likely be locked while I get to the station, so I'll get a random MAC...

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#24

Post by spuz »

nkoren wrote: post #21
cjsuk wrote: post #2

Why do they need to do this? They already track people with Oyster and contactless which gives them journey information. This is just a convenient data grab and profiteering. I'm going to sound old and curmudgeonly here, but I'm starting to miss the days when we bought paper tickets with cash.

> This is just a convenient data grab and profiteering. I know people working on this project, and that is absolutely not their motivation. They want to better understand the movement of people within the system, so they can design better stations, trains, and services. The traditional way of understanding such passenger movements is by parking students with clipboards and people-counters all around stations, doing p…

Could you give more details of the kind of information they receive from wifi tracking that they don't already through oyster barriers and how this helps with service designs?

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#25

Post by 88 »

spuz wrote: post #24
nkoren wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is just a convenient data grab and profiteering. I know people working on this project, and that is absolutely not their motivation. They want to better understand the movement of people within the system, so they can design better stations, trains, and services. The traditional way of understanding such passenger movements is by parking students with clipboards and people-counters all around stations, doing p…

Could you give more details of the kind of information they receive from wifi tracking that they don't already through oyster barriers and how this helps with service designs?

Passenger movements within stations, and between stations where there are often many possible routes.

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#26

Post by Fifer82 »

0898 wrote: post #4
cjsuk wrote: post #2

Why do they need to do this? They already track people with Oyster and contactless which gives them journey information. This is just a convenient data grab and profiteering. I'm going to sound old and curmudgeonly here, but I'm starting to miss the days when we bought paper tickets with cash.

>profiteering TfL is a not-for-profit.

So they profit, take their money, then they are not-for-profit.

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#27

Post by shawabawa3 »

spuz wrote: post #24
nkoren wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is just a convenient data grab and profiteering. I know people working on this project, and that is absolutely not their motivation. They want to better understand the movement of people within the system, so they can design better stations, trains, and services. The traditional way of understanding such passenger movements is by parking students with clipboards and people-counters all around stations, doing p…

Could you give more details of the kind of information they receive from wifi tracking that they don't already through oyster barriers and how this helps with service designs?

Just guess but: Accurate real-time data of passenger movement through the stations.

Barriers only tell you when they enter/exit, they give you no information about the routes people use, how long it takes them, how many people transfer between lines etc

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#28

Post by lucaspiller »

ricardobeat wrote: post #18
knolan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure I see the issue with iOS11. 3D Touch Settings and select WiFi and toggle it off. It’s about as much work as opening control center. If you don’t have a 3D Touch phone you have to open Settings and Navigate to WiFi which is right at the top of the list with Bluetooth and Airplane Mode.

You just gave me the first real use for 3D Touch since I got my 6S. Thanks! On the subject, one swipe + one press using control center is really much faster than finding the settings app. For me it takes at least six actions to get to the switch: press home twice, open a folder, scroll, open settings, click wifi). Even if you keep settings in your home screen that's at least four clicks/touches away.

Note that in iOS 11 doing this through the Control Center it will say “Not Connected” which is exactly what it means - the WiFi hardware is still switched on, it just discconnects:

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208086

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#29

Post by lifeisstillgood »

I used to work with a startup that did this data collection for British Rail at just these stations. It was used for fairly important things like "will this new bridge be sufficient for the passengers who currently walk all the way round to get to platform X. Will it be a crush risk / bottleneck".

A railway station should be through of as a maze where the walls really do move in and out every few minutes. hundreds of signals can appear and disappear just like that.

Its worth mentioning that I am a big supporter of GDPR but I will be one of the first to allow a variety of researchers to have blanket access to this kind of stuff for medical, town planning etc research. I need to look more deeply into that part but there surely must be ways for legitimate research such as this to be conducted?

Re: Transport for London plans to collect data from passengers' mobiles

#30

Post by jjp »

bcraven wrote: post #12

Here's the pdf from the pilot findings: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf I like this figure of the ways that people travel between KGX and Waterloo- this is the sort of data that you can't pick up using Oyster cards: https://imgur.com/Hx6mDSm.jpg

The PDF is a great read to understand the projects motivations, data collected and examples of how the data analysis could help anybody using the underground network make better informed routing decisions.
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