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Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

theguardian.com

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Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#81

Post by hjrnunes »

farresito wrote: post #64
lacaza wrote: post #46

I feel a little bit disappointed with hacker news having this superficial and anti-analytical article in the front page. As a Spaniard id like to address some points brought up here in the comments. I've read people comparing this with Crimea, thoughts on self determination, thoughts on the repression by the government, etc. The first thing is to question the referendum itself: there was no census, there are people f…

The only two autonomous communities I could see leaving are Catalonia and Basque Country. Madrid, despite being rich, has many more privileges than Catalonia. What makes you think less than 15% of people voted? Did you by any chance get these numbers from the extremely objective and impartial newspapers abc, el mundo, or la razon? I don't feel like arguing at 3am, so I will leave it at that, but reading things like o…

He said it's null in comparison.

Were it Aragon calling for independence then his comparison would not make sense. But it isn't, is it?

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#82

Post by hjrnunes »

girvo wrote: post #66
lacaza wrote: post #46

I feel a little bit disappointed with hacker news having this superficial and anti-analytical article in the front page. As a Spaniard id like to address some points brought up here in the comments. I've read people comparing this with Crimea, thoughts on self determination, thoughts on the repression by the government, etc. The first thing is to question the referendum itself: there was no census, there are people f…

> Also, Catalonia can never be compared with Scotland, their history is null in contrast. Their identity is as special as many other regions of spain. I’m curious what you mean here, do you mind expanding on your opinion?

Catalonia is and was ever just a region.

The comparison with Scotland would be apt if it were Aragon wanting independence, not a region thereof.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#83

Post by hjrnunes »

Y7ZCQtNo39 wrote: post #25
Mikeb85 wrote: post #7

It's absurd that in a Western 'democracy' you'd have the national police out to suppress a referendum and attack peaceful voters. Good job Spain, you just legitimised the referendum and gave Catalonia a ton of international sympathy.

The optics (at the moment) seem to be the most important issue here. Whether or not the vote is legitimate is quite irrelevant in immediate aftermath. This is a government using physical force against its citizens for, of all things, voting -- a core democratic principle. Democracy must be tolerant of peaceful protesting. An "illegal" vote (depending who's lens we are viewing this from), to me, is a form of peaceful…

It wasn't the government.

Spain has separation of powers. The courts declared the action illegal and directed the police to end it.

The organisers knew of the court's decision and still went ahead. That is reckless.

If they wanted to protest they could've organised demonstrations and protests - which are perfectly allowed in Spain.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#84

Post by hjrnunes »

confounded wrote: post #9
randiantech wrote: post #2

There are reports of people voting from two to 4 different schools. Wondering what methods authorities used to ensure there was no fraud on these referendum.

What would you propose in a situation where voting gets you beaten, and schools hosting ballots get smashed up?

They organisers knew the courts had instructed police to stop it.

If they wanted to protest then they should've organised protests and demonstrations, which are perfectly allowed in Spain. That would be the democratic way. Not to insist on breaking the law and disobeying court orders.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#85

Post by hjrnunes »

freehunter wrote: post #10
Mikeb85 wrote: post #7

It's absurd that in a Western 'democracy' you'd have the national police out to suppress a referendum and attack peaceful voters. Good job Spain, you just legitimised the referendum and gave Catalonia a ton of international sympathy.

You're right. I've never been to Spain, I know no one from Spain, and I don't really know anything about Spain, but I do know that using a militarized police force to stop an election, even one that is technically illegal, is pretty messed up and will only serve to further prove the separatists right. If you make peaceful protest illegal, you make violent revolution inevitable. Even if it's illegal to declare indepen…

That is ridiculous.

There was a court order to stop that action.

What sort of democracy is it when you can just ignore court orders?

If they wanted to protest then they should've organised protests and demonstrations. If they really wanted to make a point, organise a symbolic voting and have someone face the charges.

To go ahead with the whole thing was reckless. The courts cannot afford to allow themselves to be ignored.

That's the very opposite of the rule of Law!

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#87

Post by pako_crack »

hjrnunes wrote: post #85
freehunter wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. I've never been to Spain, I know no one from Spain, and I don't really know anything about Spain, but I do know that using a militarized police force to stop an election, even one that is technically illegal, is pretty messed up and will only serve to further prove the separatists right. If you make peaceful protest illegal, you make violent revolution inevitable. Even if it's illegal to declare indepen…

That is ridiculous. There was a court order to stop that action. What sort of democracy is it when you can just ignore court orders? If they wanted to protest then they should've organised protests and demonstrations. If they really wanted to make a point, organise a symbolic voting and have someone face the charges. To go ahead with the whole thing was reckless. The courts cannot afford to allow themselves to be ign…

spot on.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#88

Post by pako_crack »

RandVal30142 wrote: post #51
bassman9000 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was an illegal act, funded by public money. Had the government not acted, it would have set a bad precedent: that constitution doesn't hold weight in real life.

I dare beating firemen for voting is more illegal than holding a vote itself, let alone attending/partaking in it. The use of violence by the state forfeits such claims and opens up an avenue for reciprocation by others, which is a terrible thing to enable all due to a vote. >that constitution doesn't hold weight in real life We will see what carries more weight, violence or paper.

Beware of fake news here too. That picture of firemen fighting back is from years ago, when they were protesting against local police (Catalan one).

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#89

Post by jessaustin »

Caveman_Coder wrote: post #60
jessaustin wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California probably will have a succession vote, along with several other West-Coast states, after the Rs gain control of 37 legislatures and pass a series of bigoted Constitutional amendments. I hope that such votes are not violently suppressed, and I'm glad we're seeing object lessons in how awful that tactic is. This isn't the 1860s; we don't have a Lincoln.

> "...a series of bigoted Constitutional amendments." Any specific amendments you'd care to share? I haven't heard of any such plans.

I suspect the first will be related to who may or may not use particular public restrooms, since that is an issue of particular interest to many of their supporters. After that, one could imagine something about police tactics, because after all there's nothing more important than the ease with which our boys in blue may brutalize unfortunates.

The details might vary, but this nation is off the leash now, if in fact a nation that gets in so many wars and brutalizes so many different subsets of its people could ever have been said to have been on one. Our rulers have always distracted us from their predations with shit like this, but as the stories get harder to keep straight the distractions have to get bigger.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#90

Post by freehunter »

hjrnunes wrote: post #85
freehunter wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. I've never been to Spain, I know no one from Spain, and I don't really know anything about Spain, but I do know that using a militarized police force to stop an election, even one that is technically illegal, is pretty messed up and will only serve to further prove the separatists right. If you make peaceful protest illegal, you make violent revolution inevitable. Even if it's illegal to declare indepen…

That is ridiculous. There was a court order to stop that action. What sort of democracy is it when you can just ignore court orders? If they wanted to protest then they should've organised protests and demonstrations. If they really wanted to make a point, organise a symbolic voting and have someone face the charges. To go ahead with the whole thing was reckless. The courts cannot afford to allow themselves to be ign…

A court order to stop a vote, to me, is appalling. It should be ignored. A vote is just a protest, it is purely symbolic until it's implemented. Voting should never be illegal, even if implementing the law voted on would be illegal.

Marijuana is illegal in many places in the US. It's illegal at the federal level, and even if it's legal in some states, the federal government can still arrest you for having marijuana. But we constantly have votes to try to legalize it at the local or state level, knowing that it's still illegal at the national level.

Having that vote is not illegal, even if following through with the results of the vote is illegal. Courts are not infallible and their orders are not always the best course of action.

Almost every declaration of independence throughout history has been considered illegal. They were reckless. They were against the rule of law. They still happened.

Regardless, a vote is a peaceful action. Responding to that peaceful action with violence is what is reckless and against the rule of law.

I guess there are still some freedoms we take for granted in the US that other countries have not yet granted themselves.

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