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A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

theguardian.com

141–150 of 173 posts

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#141
post #122
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dijkstra famously compared this to astronomers who have no interest in telescopes or observing. I love theory, would happily retire to it—but I can’t see how anyone could have the right imagination calibration without lots of practice.

Dijkstra famously compared this to astronomers who have no interest in telescopes or observing That certainly isn't my interpretation of the quote (unless you're thinking of a different quote than the one I'm familiar with) The quote I know is: "Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes."

yep, the fact that computer sciences spend a lot of time on pen/paper/board and brings proofs without actually program them doesn't mean that CS researchers are not interested in code. Code is their ultimate goal, but it's an implementation detail :-)

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#142
A classic tale, where the product is valuable, yet the demand is scarce. A system where there are few alternative avenues for those who place second or third. It's disheartening to say the least. People look at Blade Runner 2049 and think dystopianism, yet here we are, a system over-saturated, yet, inexorably undernourished.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#143

The only time I have missed not getting a PhD was when lawyers have me explain to someone who has a PhD what I mean so that they can bring my testimony into an IP case by a more identifiable 'expert'. That said, there is a particularly annoying type of PhD in the tech world, it is one who assumes that the person they are talking to who doesn't have a PhD, doesn't have that degree because they were incapable of gettin…

Sunken emotional cost fallacy - there gotta be some value in PhD even if it's a sense of superiority.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#144

I work in engineering consultancy. Some of our best consultants come from non-engineering backgrounds. Two in particular - one is an architect by training, the other an ancient historian, with a background in reconstructing ancient power hierarchies from the inscriptions on funeral carvings. In my field, the transferable skills from academic research are far more important than the domain knowledge.

Do they get their hands dirty?

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#145
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your interview questions sound like bullshit. What are these interviews for, how did you arrive at those questions, and what leads you to believe they have a strong correlation with success?

I also use the odd-even number question in my phone screen. The primary purpose I use it for is to filter out people who can't program at all, my secondary purpose is to see if they can think of using a bitwise operator when prompted for an alternate solution(s). I don't think it's worthwhile to ask for more complicated problem implementations (at least at the phone screen level) since complicated algorithms aren't w…

I hope the people who don't think of using a bitwise operator still get through. I've been programming for ~9 years and have never thought to use it.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#146
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you get downvoted because theoretical CS research really doesn't need to involve coding, so it's not as odd as you seem to think.

Dijkstra famously compared this to astronomers who have no interest in telescopes or observing. I love theory, would happily retire to it—but I can’t see how anyone could have the right imagination calibration without lots of practice.

You have definitely gotten Dijkstra's intent with that famous quote completely backwards…

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#147
post #96

Maybe academia shouldn't be considered a normal career. Rather it is a reward for pursuing something you are passionate about. You are willing to do it for free so anything you get is a bonus -- perhaps not literally, but that is the yard stick one should use when considering an academic career. At least that is what I am telling my older one who is applying to colleges right now.

Lots of people are passionate about academic research in their chosen field, and extremely talented and qualified and even PhDed, and still don't get to do it (certainly, it's difficult to get time to do things for free in a world where one needs money to live), so, I dunno…

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#148
post #44

I come from a city university, and in my experience many of the master students there (information system or computer science program) are not up to standard when they leave the program (i.e. they can't really program, let alone with theories). I think this is the problem with my school, but when I had this conversation with an old friend he felt that his master classes focused on theory, very little room for program…

You get downvoted because your story is about as rational as someone getting angry at you because you did something in a dream.

Compare:

"He told me he was the king of Nigeria. I didn't believe him, but if he is, how come the king of Nigeria is white?"

By far the simplest explanation is that the candidate lied about having a PhD. You have no reason to believe this isn't the case. And yet you're holding onto this story as though the candidate didn't lie, and bringing it up in that context.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#149
I'm a CS professor, so take everything I say as biased or whatever.

We all know and expect that most PhD students will not end up in academia. The best PhD students often aren't those who want to be academics, but ones who are just insanely curious. There aren't many times in life when you can work on something that just interests you in great depth and (hopefully) push forward what we collectively know. A PhD allows that. If you're doing it just for the qualification, you won't get nearly as much out of it, and may not finish at all.

So, what should you get out of a PhD? If the advisor does it right, the PhD student should learn what it is to do high quality scientific research. That is, ask a question, figure out a series of experiments that might allow that question to be answered, evaluate the data, and come up with conclusions supported by evidence.

It turns out this is insanely hard to teach, and I've never seen a new PhD student, no matter what their background, who can do this at the start. No undergraduate or MSc programme manages to teach this, though some students seem naturally somewhat better at it than others. We try only to admit those.

With a new PhD student, many of the ideas, most of the suggestions for experiments to run, and much of the interpretation of the results will usually come from the advisor.

As a PhD progresses, the student should be gaining experience in what it takes to frame a good experiment that might actually answer the question you want to answer. And they should be gaining experience on how to interpret results and what you can conclude from them. During this phase, much of my role is staring at graphs the student has produced, and asking "why does it do that?". An experienced student would already have an answer, a semi-experienced student will have noticed the anomaly, but not know how to figure out the cause, and an inexperience student will not have noticed anything is strange.

By the end of the PhD, a great student will be ahead of me in suggesting the experiments to run, and will have already run them before they come to see me. Only about 10% of PhD students reach this point.

In the end, people over-rate what the topic of a PhD is in the educational process. What most people get from a PhD is an apprenticeship in scientific method. Those are transferable skills, and the reason PhDs have endured as a qualification is we really don't know any other way to teach them.

Of course, no-one actually teaches professors to teach PhD students - we learned it by osmosis too - so the quality of professors in teaching these skills is pretty varied.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#150
post #66

I'm surprised this article doesn't try to address the reasons this is happening. It mentions that the employers (universities) benefit from students funding themselves, and I'm not super familiar with the UK's academic system, but this seems to be an oversight by the author/editor since most PhD students (in the US, at least) are funded to do their research. I think the most important reasons we have a glut of PhDs w…

>>3. PhD programs are often used an immigration tool rather than as preparation for academia. Many PhD students I worked with were getting PhDs so that they could emigrate from India/Pakistan/China to the US and get a well-paying job. I'm sure a similar phenomenon occurs in the UK. I don't think this is true at all. Why do PhD (4-6yrs+), when a MS is enough to find a job and get an H1-B/GC ??

While not enough in of itself, a PhD will greatly increase your chances of getting an O-1. Which is much more attractive than an H-1B. Also, remember that H-1Bs from India and China have to wait for many many years before they can get their GCs. Hardly worth it.
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