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A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

theguardian.com

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Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#111

Post by dnautics »

bjd2385 wrote: post #47
pacala wrote: post #4

The PhD system is a Ponzi scheme. First and foremost, a PhD program trains one to become a professor. During a professor career, one is expected to graduate 5, 10, 20 PhD students. It is mathematically impossible for the majority of these students to find a professor job. The explosion of higher education, internally and globally, masks the problem to some extent, just like a good old fashioned Ponzi scheme appears s…

More like the entire higher education system. This is what happens when businessmen run an education system and not True academics.

There's a strong opposite argument, you should probably familiarize yourself with it to have something to think about.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/saving-science

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#112

Post by smrtinsert »

Why are these would be professors not reading these articles? It's well known for years academia is no place to look for a great job. Find something else, I'm sorry to be harsh, but for the well educated, you should be able to find something else - especially given such early warning.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#114

Post by QAPereo »

stevenwoo wrote: post #73
limbicsystem wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. I'm the Chair of a (neuroscience and psychology) departmental graduate school and I also sometimes sit in on departmental PhD 'scholarship' interviews. One of the questions we ask is 'Given that your chances of gaining a job in academia are only about 1 in 8, what do you think you will do when you finish graduate school?'. Then, when they arrive, we show them, a discuss, a version of this picture http://thegra…

It's laudable that the likely end results are presented so clearly and early. Have you ever done a survey immediately afterwards to see how many students goals align with the likely outcomes? It seems like if a student is in that position where they were very successful at being a student for the prior 16 years and succeeded at getting into your graduate school that they might think they are the 1 in 8 - maybe all ei…

Is it? One way to recruit a certain kind of soldier is to build up the notion of “elite” and then ask, “are you up to it?” Young people often leap at that, and you can always say you told them it would be tough.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#115

Post by freyir »

beambot wrote: post #69
pacala wrote: post #4

The PhD system is a Ponzi scheme. First and foremost, a PhD program trains one to become a professor. During a professor career, one is expected to graduate 5, 10, 20 PhD students. It is mathematically impossible for the majority of these students to find a professor job. The explosion of higher education, internally and globally, masks the problem to some extent, just like a good old fashioned Ponzi scheme appears s…

> First and foremost, a PhD program trains one to become a professor. You are grossly misinformed. PhDs programs are training for a career in research. Professorships are only one possible path... and just like you intuited, it's not even the dominant career path.

It’s not the dominant career path because there are too many applicants for too few jobs.

In many fields, academia is the option for a career in research, and a viable career in academic research means a professorship.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#116

Post by pfisch »

limbicsystem wrote: post #49
krastanov wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite certainly, becoming a professor is not "first and foremost" what PhD leads to (nor is it what many people do it for). It is certainly not my experience. I am a PhD student and since the very beginning my mentors (program directors, my PhD advisor, committee members) have been pretty clear about future prospects: "the opportunities in industry are such and such (compared to the opportunities for BS and MS)", "po…

Right. I'm the Chair of a (neuroscience and psychology) departmental graduate school and I also sometimes sit in on departmental PhD 'scholarship' interviews. One of the questions we ask is 'Given that your chances of gaining a job in academia are only about 1 in 8, what do you think you will do when you finish graduate school?'. Then, when they arrive, we show them, a discuss, a version of this picture http://thegra…

That is great and all but I would still classify this kind of behavior as predatory and taking advantage of the young.

Payday loan places are also pretty transparent about the situation.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#117

Post by lokimedes »

mikebenfield wrote: post #32
krastanov wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite certainly, becoming a professor is not "first and foremost" what PhD leads to (nor is it what many people do it for). It is certainly not my experience. I am a PhD student and since the very beginning my mentors (program directors, my PhD advisor, committee members) have been pretty clear about future prospects: "the opportunities in industry are such and such (compared to the opportunities for BS and MS)", "po…

I think this varies somewhat by field, but I promise you, in many fields essentially the only reason to get a PhD is for a career in academia. The idea of a someone in graduate school not aspiring to become a professor still sounds odd to me. And while I never had anyone outright lie to me or tell me job prospects were great, there were also few people who gave me a really clear picture of just how bad they were.

I hope that part of being accepted into a PhD programme involves the ability to realize that there’s not much room at the top.

Personally I loved my PhD experience even when I knew that the race to tenure was not for me. In many ways the reward of a science PhD on the jobmarket is large. At my current company we are treated as superstars among both engineers and management, and there is plenty of ways to make use of whatever lessons learned. (Disclosure: experimental particle physicist working in the European defense industry).

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#118

Post by self_assembly »

dnautics wrote: post #110
chrisseaton wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First and foremost, a PhD program trains one to become a professor. No it doesn't! It trains you to be a researcher. You can be a researcher without being a professor.

I mean, yes, it is possible for me to do biochemistry in my garage without a professorship (and I do), but will people actually take you seriously? Will you get money to do your research? Where will you publish? Not all of us can be Peter Mitchell, and arguably it's harder now that government funded research has a near monopoly on the research industrial complex.

I guess it comes down to why are you doing the research in the first place. Is it for your own curiosity and self-fulfillment or is it for "people to take you seriously"? I'll admit your point about resources is completely fair and oftentimes you need the prestige to obtain the necessary resources. However there is plenty or research that can be done without insane amounts of resources (There are actually some benefits to this approach in that I don't have to work on "safe projects" that are deemed "serious research" by the community. It is actually quite liberating to work on things that others might scoff at and call you a "quack" or "wack job". And even if I am a "quack" I can honestly tell you that I am happy and feel fulfilled. Just my two cents. Life is too short to worry about everyone else.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#119

Post by martin1975 »

mikebenfield wrote: post #37
Overtonwindow wrote: post #2

I think what we have is a glut of people who don't want to enter the workforce, and have this naive dream of academia, tenure, and doing research. In my humble opinion, the purpose of a professor at a university is to TEACH. Not research, that should be secondary to their teaching duties. Universities are deceiving PhD students into thinking this magical world of research, and lifetime tenure awaits them at the end o…

> Not research, that should be secondary to their teaching duties. Why?

I'd say because teaching has a higher payoff for the students being taught. They can get jobs immediately after college and contribute...

Research on the other hand, outside of the self-serving aspect - like how many papers one gets published - has hardly any immediate benefits relative to the benefits of teaching... and few long term benefits. It's more of a gamble.

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