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Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

theguardian.com

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Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#51

Post by RandVal30142 »

bassman9000 wrote: post #42
Y7ZCQtNo39 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The optics (at the moment) seem to be the most important issue here. Whether or not the vote is legitimate is quite irrelevant in immediate aftermath. This is a government using physical force against its citizens for, of all things, voting -- a core democratic principle. Democracy must be tolerant of peaceful protesting. An "illegal" vote (depending who's lens we are viewing this from), to me, is a form of peaceful…

It was an illegal act, funded by public money. Had the government not acted, it would have set a bad precedent: that constitution doesn't hold weight in real life.

I dare beating firemen for voting is more illegal than holding a vote itself, let alone attending/partaking in it. The use of violence by the state forfeits such claims and opens up an avenue for reciprocation by others, which is a terrible thing to enable all due to a vote.

>that constitution doesn't hold weight in real life

We will see what carries more weight, violence or paper.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#52

Post by thescribe »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #38
gtirloni wrote: post #34

I understand the freedom argument but it's probably coming at a very high price for little practical gain. It seems a form of Brexit, based largely on emotions without a clear path forward. Catalonia becomes a nation state and then what? Are they now an island in the EU? Easy trade with all other regions in Spain now has to go through taxes and trade agreements? How much is debt increasing? https://www.cnbc.com/2017/…

Funny you mention Brexit. https://thinkprogress.org/assange-catalonia-independence-0a8... http://www.smh.com.au/world/on-catalan-independence-julian-a... Seems to be modest pattern emerging.

If you are ideologically opposed to large and powerful nation states you'd almost categorically support breaking them into smaller states.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#53

Post by throwaway5752 »

thescribe wrote: post #52
throwaway5752 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny you mention Brexit. https://thinkprogress.org/assange-catalonia-independence-0a8... http://www.smh.com.au/world/on-catalan-independence-julian-a... Seems to be modest pattern emerging.

If you are ideologically opposed to large and powerful nation states you'd almost categorically support breaking them into smaller states.

Just like he supports breaking up Russia? Did you read the 2nd link and look at the ranking of influencers on #catalonia?

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#54

Post by justin66 »

jlmorton wrote: post #23
Mikeb85 wrote: post #7

It's absurd that in a Western 'democracy' you'd have the national police out to suppress a referendum and attack peaceful voters. Good job Spain, you just legitimised the referendum and gave Catalonia a ton of international sympathy.

I wonder, what would happen in the United States if California decided it wanted to secede, the Congress passed a resolution opposing it, the President said it was illegal, and the Supreme Court concurred and ruled the vote itself illegal. Would the US allow the vote to proceed? It certainly is illegal for any US State to secede, and we fought one of the bloodiest wars in the history of the world over it.

> Would the US allow the vote to proceed?

It'd be unconstitutional to interfere in California's referendum process. The referendum wouldn't have any legal force, so why bother interfering anyhow?

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#55

Post by kgwgk »

Y7ZCQtNo39 wrote: post #49
bassman9000 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was an illegal act, funded by public money. Had the government not acted, it would have set a bad precedent: that constitution doesn't hold weight in real life.

Maybe a court should be deciding whether or not it is illegal, not the police. Again, my comment was about using the proper response to a given situation. I don't think the use of public money for the illegal act necessarily sets a bad precedent. The constitution didn't say to go out there and spray rubber bullets at civilians. So how a government can respond to this illegal act is a subjective choice. Spain could ha…

Police was instructed by courts to prevent the (illegal) vote from taking place.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#56

Post by charlesism »

evanlivingston wrote: post #45
charlesism wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole idea of a democracy is that the majority wins (which is why we need liberalism to offer protection for the minority). Every minority is a majority of itself . This is one reason why trying to deal with secessionists in a democracy is so difficult (see also Canada, and Ireland).

Perhaps that's a point of failure in democracies as we have seen them implemented, in that a large group of people are sometimes beholden to a larger group of people with whom they don't identify.

Lately, I have the feeling that all this growing nationalism in the world will take care of itself within a decade or so. The logical end to having pride in your (ethnic or geographical) subgroup isn't a few hundred happy nations living separately in harmony. It's war :(

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#58

Post by justin66 »

rasz wrote: post #31
hyper_reality wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that will be one argument used by the Spanish authorities as to why the referendum was invalid.

There is no need for any additional arguments beyond whats in Spanish constitution.

If they really felt that way, they wouldn't have sent all those cops to bust heads.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#59

Post by jessaustin »

jlmorton wrote: post #23
Mikeb85 wrote: post #7

It's absurd that in a Western 'democracy' you'd have the national police out to suppress a referendum and attack peaceful voters. Good job Spain, you just legitimised the referendum and gave Catalonia a ton of international sympathy.

I wonder, what would happen in the United States if California decided it wanted to secede, the Congress passed a resolution opposing it, the President said it was illegal, and the Supreme Court concurred and ruled the vote itself illegal. Would the US allow the vote to proceed? It certainly is illegal for any US State to secede, and we fought one of the bloodiest wars in the history of the world over it.

California probably will have a succession vote, along with several other West-Coast states, after the Rs gain control of 37 legislatures and pass a series of bigoted Constitutional amendments. I hope that such votes are not violently suppressed, and I'm glad we're seeing object lessons in how awful that tactic is. This isn't the 1860s; we don't have a Lincoln.

Re: Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence

#60

Post by Caveman_Coder »

jessaustin wrote: post #59
jlmorton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder, what would happen in the United States if California decided it wanted to secede, the Congress passed a resolution opposing it, the President said it was illegal, and the Supreme Court concurred and ruled the vote itself illegal. Would the US allow the vote to proceed? It certainly is illegal for any US State to secede, and we fought one of the bloodiest wars in the history of the world over it.

California probably will have a succession vote, along with several other West-Coast states, after the Rs gain control of 37 legislatures and pass a series of bigoted Constitutional amendments. I hope that such votes are not violently suppressed, and I'm glad we're seeing object lessons in how awful that tactic is. This isn't the 1860s; we don't have a Lincoln.

> "...a series of bigoted Constitutional amendments."

Any specific amendments you'd care to share? I haven't heard of any such plans.

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