A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#11

Post by oddlyaromatic » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:23 PM UTC

Overtonwindow wrote: post #2

I think what we have is a glut of people who don't want to enter the workforce, and have this naive dream of academia, tenure, and doing research. In my humble opinion, the purpose of a professor at a university is to TEACH. Not research, that should be secondary to their teaching duties. Universities are deceiving PhD students into thinking this magical world of research, and lifetime tenure awaits them at the end o…

Mine didn't. I did an MA and got an up close view of the life of many academics and recognized it was not for me. But the general impression I got was there are two good reasons to do a phd:

1. For pleasure/curiosity/enjoyment (as in you are independently wealthy).

2. If you can't see yourself being happy in any other life and you understand the compromises you have to make (poor income, high competition, having to move a lot, etc.)

I know some wonderful PhDs who got doctorates with this very understanding and love their lives. But I didn't have the wealth to do it for fun, and I generally land on my feet and get happy no matter what, so I didn't borrow any more trouble and moved on with my life.

America's universities maybe may be different but this is how it was in Ireland!

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#12

Post by krastanov » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:24 PM UTC

pacala wrote: post #4

The PhD system is a Ponzi scheme. First and foremost, a PhD program trains one to become a professor. During a professor career, one is expected to graduate 5, 10, 20 PhD students. It is mathematically impossible for the majority of these students to find a professor job. The explosion of higher education, internally and globally, masks the problem to some extent, just like a good old fashioned Ponzi scheme appears s…

Quite certainly, becoming a professor is not "first and foremost" what PhD leads to (nor is it what many people do it for).

It is certainly not my experience. I am a PhD student and since the very beginning my mentors (program directors, my PhD advisor, committee members) have been pretty clear about future prospects: "the opportunities in industry are such and such (compared to the opportunities for BS and MS)", "postdoc positions have those requirements", "the chances for getting a permanent research/teaching position is so and so".

While there are people who are dishonest with their students, it is borderline offensive to lump them up with all the rest. All the people I have worked with have been honest about job prospects and have worked hard to give me the best tools to work in those jobs.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#13

Post by opportune » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:26 PM UTC

I'm surprised this article doesn't try to address the reasons this is happening. It mentions that the employers (universities) benefit from students funding themselves, and I'm not super familiar with the UK's academic system, but this seems to be an oversight by the author/editor since most PhD students (in the US, at least) are funded to do their research.

I think the most important reasons we have a glut of PhDs who can't find academic jobs are that

1. Education is becoming more universally accessible and overall education is increasing. This causes a larger proportion of the population to be interested in getting PhDs and also to be qualified (academically) to do so. Similarly, to stand out in the job market, some people may be getting PhDs to differentiate themselves from people with masters/bachelors (or equivalents), since there are so many people with these degrees now.

2. A university spends less money on salaries by having a small number of professors with huge labs and armies of PhDs rather than a larger number of professors: a graduate student will work for 10-25% of a professor's salary, and without tenure. Maintaining this ratio requires having many more graduate students than professors, but doesn't give those graduate students anywhere to go when they graduate.

3. PhD programs are often used an immigration tool rather than as preparation for academia. Many PhD students I worked with were getting PhDs so that they could emigrate from India/Pakistan/China to the US and get a well-paying job. I'm sure a similar phenomenon occurs in the UK.

4. Research spending hasn't caught up with the increasing number of PhDs.

5. Because of the research boom in the post world-war period (this occurred in the US as well), most people getting academic jobs around then were around the same age. Many of these people haven't retired yet, and they may subconsciously have introduced a new part of academic culture: you need to be old before you get a professorship.

6. Many students graduate with PhDs but without having done significant enough research to merit continuing in academia. This could have a variety of causes: publish or perish, admitting unqualified/unmotivated candidates, the academic "low-hanging fruit" getting harder to research with time.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#14

Post by apersona » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:27 PM UTC

frozenport wrote: post #5

>>Despite our moans about hours of work, pay, and pensions, being an academic is still the best job in the world for those of a particular temperament and talents. I have a slave temperment and enjoy being hauranged by my PI? My talents include falsifying experiments and writing endless papers about how our method is superior to all other methods? Yet we, much like the communist revolutions in the 20th century, have…

Have you actually been in a PhD program?

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#15

Post by opportune » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:28 PM UTC

pacala wrote: post #4

The PhD system is a Ponzi scheme. First and foremost, a PhD program trains one to become a professor. During a professor career, one is expected to graduate 5, 10, 20 PhD students. It is mathematically impossible for the majority of these students to find a professor job. The explosion of higher education, internally and globally, masks the problem to some extent, just like a good old fashioned Ponzi scheme appears s…

A PhD program trains one to become a researcher, not a professor. There is a large need for researchers in industry.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#16

Post by mjfl » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:30 PM UTC

Overtonwindow wrote: post #2

I think what we have is a glut of people who don't want to enter the workforce, and have this naive dream of academia, tenure, and doing research. In my humble opinion, the purpose of a professor at a university is to TEACH. Not research, that should be secondary to their teaching duties. Universities are deceiving PhD students into thinking this magical world of research, and lifetime tenure awaits them at the end o…

I'm a PhD student with no intention of going into academia. I just love science, and being able to do it for 5 more years is inherently fulfilling to me. That's why I came back to grad school after working for two years. Let's be real, real life kind of sucks. Now I get paid less but I feel like I'm living in luxury. I have no illusion about the money I'm sacrificing but in my mind I've made a fair trade.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#17

Post by PunchTornado » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:31 PM UTC

opportune wrote: post #13

I'm surprised this article doesn't try to address the reasons this is happening. It mentions that the employers (universities) benefit from students funding themselves, and I'm not super familiar with the UK's academic system, but this seems to be an oversight by the author/editor since most PhD students (in the US, at least) are funded to do their research. I think the most important reasons we have a glut of PhDs w…

In the UK it is rare that PhD students are funded to do their research.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#18

Post by enraged_camel » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:34 PM UTC

Overtonwindow wrote: post #2

I think what we have is a glut of people who don't want to enter the workforce, and have this naive dream of academia, tenure, and doing research. In my humble opinion, the purpose of a professor at a university is to TEACH. Not research, that should be secondary to their teaching duties. Universities are deceiving PhD students into thinking this magical world of research, and lifetime tenure awaits them at the end o…

>>In my humble opinion, the purpose of a professor at a university is to TEACH. Not research, that should be secondary to their teaching duties.

No. PhDs are extremely specialized on a very narrow topic within a single field. They spend years researching that topic to the exclusion of everything else.

Asking PhDs to teach is like asking brain surgeons to treat common cold. They probably can do it, but it's a gross waste of their skills and expertise.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#19

Post by chrisseaton » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:34 PM UTC

PunchTornado wrote: post #17

opportune wrote: post #13

I'm surprised this article doesn't try to address the reasons this is happening. It mentions that the employers (universities) benefit from students funding themselves, and I'm not super familiar with the UK's academic system, but this seems to be an oversight by the author/editor since most PhD students (in the US, at least) are funded to do their research. I think the most important reasons we have a glut of PhDs w…

In the UK it is rare that PhD students are funded to do their research.

This thread is full of bizarre mis-information. I have never heard of a PhD student in the UK who was not funded. Most get around £13k tax-free and don't have to pay tuition. I didn't even have to teach, and I had a company fund my last year as an employee even.

Re: A glut of PhDs who can’t find academic jobs

#20

Post by opportune » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:35 PM UTC

PunchTornado wrote: post #17

opportune wrote: post #13

I'm surprised this article doesn't try to address the reasons this is happening. It mentions that the employers (universities) benefit from students funding themselves, and I'm not super familiar with the UK's academic system, but this seems to be an oversight by the author/editor since most PhD students (in the US, at least) are funded to do their research. I think the most important reasons we have a glut of PhDs w…

In the UK it is rare that PhD students are funded to do their research.

I looked it up and I'm seeing that it still costs about 6k pounds or less per year. Is there a program designed to provide easy/guaranteed credit to PhD students?

To me it seems really bizarre to charge this amount because it only seems enough to keep out poor or financially unstable people (for the UK), without conferring much financial benefit to the university.