Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

la3.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

541–550 of 565 posts

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#541

Post by euyyn »

toyg wrote: post #510
euyyn wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't how things happened. Before the Constitution was even drafted, Suarez had put forward, and the francoist institutions had approved, the "Ley para la Reforma Política": https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/1977/01/05/pdfs/A00170-00171.pdf Read the first two articles of that law; Spain was no longer a dictatorship. The last clause of the law enacts it as supreme law of the land. It is following that law that the firs…

> If the Constitution they wrote didn't pass the popular vote of the referendum, general elections would be repeated and the process would start again. That's a very optimistic view of the situation. In practice, the instability resulting from not completing the process would have had dramatic consequences. Among other things, there was a Cold War on which could have easily started a new civil war. > the francoist re…

What I meant isn't that someone would have decided to start the process again, rather than that's what the law established. The choice presented to the people in the referendum wasn't "accept this or go back to a dictatorship", as the parent commenter believed. I don't intend to say the politicians involved had an easy job coming up with the appropriate compromises; far from it. But the fact that the support the Constitution got in Catalonia was so overwhelming is definitely not because "it was either that or Franco".

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#542

Post by euyyn »

toyg wrote: post #512
euyyn wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is pure revisionism. > It was drafted by 7 hand-picked representatives, 4 of which were basically franchists Two out of the seven writers of the Constitution were Catalan (~1/3 of the writers for ~1/6 of the population). One of them a communist. The other one, exiled during the dictatorship for supporting Catalan nationalism. > ratified by franchist institutions before being put to a popular vote Before being pu…

> The francoist party of Fraga only won 16/350 seats in that Congress; The prime minister was still an ex-Franchist and the UCD had plenty of old hands around. The Franchists still had huge relevance in the army. The drafters were still moving with a somewhat limited room for manoeuver. > could tell the writers to go back to their drafts until the result was to their liking. Not really. These things don't happen in a…

Of course the situation was delicate, and required a great deal of negotiations and compromises; that's when democracy shines most, when all parts compromise to reach an agreement.

I'm just stating that no, the writers of the Constitution weren't "hand picked", rather selected by Congress among representatives elected democratically; and no, it wasn't ratified by francoist institutions, rather by a democratically-elected Congress (and later on by a referendum). That's just revisionism that gets spread to fuel Catalan nationalism.

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#543

Post by morgante »

dane-pgp wrote: post #507
morgante wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion of a referendum being "illegal" is farcical. No democracy should prohibit people from deciding to get together and conduct a poll on something.

The idea of a referendum being "illegal" may be counter-intuitive, but I don't think the situation is as simple as you suggest. For example, secession (not to mention sedition or treason) is illegal in many jurisdictions, and is a natural thing for sovereign countries to want to prevent. It is also natural for the sovereign central government of a country to put limits on what a regional government can and cannot do,…

Secession can certainly be illegal, but that simply means any outcome of an unsanctioned referendum is legally irrelevant.

As far as I can tell, Spain is going to great lengths to curtail the rights of citizens to express their opinions on secession. They're free to ignore the outcome of this vote, but raiding ISPs, shutting down political pamphlets, and reading private mail are not the actions of a democratic country—they're tactics straight out of an authoritarian regime.

Secession is also illegal in the US (and we fought a war to prove it), but you don't see federal agents arresting people for starting ballot initiatives in California or shutting down Vermont secession websites.

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#544

Post by kgwgk »

morgante wrote: post #543
dane-pgp wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of a referendum being "illegal" may be counter-intuitive, but I don't think the situation is as simple as you suggest. For example, secession (not to mention sedition or treason) is illegal in many jurisdictions, and is a natural thing for sovereign countries to want to prevent. It is also natural for the sovereign central government of a country to put limits on what a regional government can and cannot do,…

Secession can certainly be illegal, but that simply means any outcome of an unsanctioned referendum is legally irrelevant. As far as I can tell, Spain is going to great lengths to curtail the rights of citizens to express their opinions on secession. They're free to ignore the outcome of this vote, but raiding ISPs, shutting down political pamphlets, and reading private mail are not the actions of a democratic countr…

Neither do you see the government of California or Vermont organising a binding vote to secede from the US in 48 hours (while maintaining the US citizenship!).

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#545

Post by pvaldes »

lottin wrote: post #216
amelius wrote: post #112

As an outsider, it's strange that nobody here seems to question whether the referendum really makes sense. Forgetting about Catalonia for a moment, isn't it fundamentally amoral that a part of the country where prosperity has (by mere chance) concentrated suddenly wants to split off? Isn't this taking wealth-inequality to the next level? Of course the people in a prosperous part of the country want to split off. Abso…

The ones that oppose the referendum also do it for selfish reasons. They don't want to lose something that in their view belongs to them.

> The ones that oppose the referendum also do it for selfish reasons. They don't want to lose something that in their view belongs to them.

Is not so complicated to understand. Spanish constitution grants clearly and explicitly that all citizens co-own the country and (unless this right is retired for things like committing a crime and losing their freedom) they can benefit of the use of any public space. The ramblas are also mine, as from millions of other people. Not, is not "my point of view", and not, is not "debatable". All Catalonian people are also co-owners of Doñana and this is not debatable either (not even in the hypothetical case that the current and temporal president of Catalonia wouldn't stand Andalucia).

They will lose this rights, and many other, because somebody is starting flames every day and acting as a troll for fun and profit since years

What was happened in Spain was just tyranny of a minority using people, women, elder and children as human shields with the purpose to steal people from their rights, by any means. Some people came from their home with urns closed and loaded with ballots, before voting. I ask you, second-person plural, was it funny to use your computer skills helping scammers to commit a big fraud?. Sorry, but I can't see where is the fun. Some people got beaten and there is a man in the hospital with a severely damaged eye.

What you would expect from the police in case that somebody would announce that, for a small ramson, will not distroy unilaterally the future, bussiness and current rights of millions of non-independentist people in 48 hours? Would you negociate and pay?

To fight for your constitutional rights and for the respect to the law is to fight by saving the society from falling into the law of the jungle. Is the opposite to "being selfish" and benefits everybody.

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#547

Post by ismaelmartinez »

Agree they should have not use a bespoke algorithm but I don't think there is much of a security issue. Knowing where you need to go to vote is not enough to vote.

You still need the physical security of the ID (DNI) that includes a few security features (like your face). You can see and image here: http://www.aulaclic.es/articulos/graficos/DNIe.gif

From my point of view, this rises a far more interesting question.

Do you guys think it could be possible to use blockchain to implement a secure voting system? I do and I got a few ideas about the main issues (authentication, authorisation, validity period and others) and will be happy to discuss with anyone interested on co-developing such a system... or if you know of one already do let me know!

Seems like if every computer can be a "poling station", authoritarian regimes/governments will have a more difficult way of stopping this sort of voting from happening. And maybe, only maybe, we can enjoy a free democracy.

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#548

Post by elecbit »

pvaldes wrote: post #534
stale2002 wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. And because there are no tanks yet, the vote is moving ahead. There has certainly been some disruption, but the people are mostly still forging ahead on all fronts. The police have open fired on some of the pro independence people, sending a couple hundred to the hospital, but that is very minor in the vast scheme of things. A couple hundred pro independence people in the hospital isn't that big of a barrier…

Well played. You can exprime a lot of pro-independentist juice if you put a 80 years old lady in the position of being beaten and videotape all instead to try to defend her. Another point for the good guys. Another possibility could be separatists thinking last week or yesterday "this is stupid, some people could be hurt!, for nothing!, why we don't stop this farce before... dunno... a 80yo lady is beaten or so? I be…

Please downvote this fascist.

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#549

Post by elecbit »

pvaldes wrote: post #526
stale2002 wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds an awful lot like things aren't working out then. Perhaps a split is better? Then you don't have to deal with them. A vote is happening. There is nothing that the government can do to stop it unless they send in the tanks and start killing millions.

At this moment, I don't see any tank. Maybe you are living in your own dark fascist fantasy? Beware and let us know if you spot any zombie

Check world news today and see the state violence against catalan people.

More than 800 wounded in hospital. I think it is not a fantasy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/01/dozens-injured...

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#550

Post by pvaldes »

wyager wrote: post #161
amelius wrote: post #112

As an outsider, it's strange that nobody here seems to question whether the referendum really makes sense. Forgetting about Catalonia for a moment, isn't it fundamentally amoral that a part of the country where prosperity has (by mere chance) concentrated suddenly wants to split off? Isn't this taking wealth-inequality to the next level? Of course the people in a prosperous part of the country want to split off. Abso…

It's immoral to forcibly drag people down when they'd do better on their own. The crab mentality is awful.

> It's immoral to forcibly drag people down when they'd do better on their own

Will really do?

There is a group of people that mainly buy the Catalonian products. Guess who? well this is embarrassing, the evil non-catalonian spaniards. It seems that they forgot to mention it or include such small fact in their economic big plans for a brighter future (without your main clients).

This is bussiness almost becoming pure radical art. They are publicly declaring that will not stand a minute more in the same room as the scumbags that buy their products and support their families. "Keep walking customer, there is nothing to see here".

It is true if by "fly like an eagle of finances" you mean "sink as a rock full of crabs", of course.

Post reply on HN