Live data from Hacker News

Could ayahuasca have health benefits?

bbc.co.uk

61–70 of 161 posts

Re: Could ayahuasca have health benefits?

#61
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't need this daily coffee and sugar fix anymore. In the same way, some people just stop being "addicted" to life in general after strong trip. Some of them decide to commit suicide. Just yesterday, I've been in party and one guy told story of his friend who committed suicide after such trip. The big problem with psychedelics is that you can't predict in which way a trip could change you.

Which drug? Context matters. Salvia can be a very negative experience and has allegedly caused suicides. DMT is almost a universally euphoric and positive experience although not Ayahausca. I have never heard of anyone committing suicide after either. The big problem with psychedelics is how people spread fear and uncertainty. Try sharing the death statistics for alcohol the next time you share a bottle of wine with…

Salvia is, for me, is quite rough.

But I can't imagine it causing suicide. What's the progression/causation there? Or do we just not have enough data to know?

Re: Could ayahuasca have health benefits?

#63
post #43
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaporized DMT is far more intense than consuming it orally with an MAOI.

Indeed. Persian elves weaving the tapestry of the universe, with the physical world nowhere in sight.

As a young adult in beginning of my 20s I've experimented with a plethora of other drugs as well, mostly psychedelics which back then were legally available, at least where I'm from (Ayahuasca is still legal here [1]).

Its been a good 10 years ago but during my experience with DMT + MAOI (self prepared, legally bought from a company called Azarius). From what I remember, I merely saw dragons in all kind of colours whilst lying down. I couldn't see through it just like you described. Auditory perception was vastly altered as well, akin to psilocybin, but with psilo I often lacked the visual aspect of 'tripping'.

The most anxious part of my consumption was the preparation because of the dangers associated with the MAOI. I carefully avoided everything except one cup of espresso a few hours before I started intake. I also didn't quit smoking (back then I was an average smoker). I had no hunger during my usage, though I don't remember the effect on my smoking habits. I wrote various trip reports for private usage back then and still have them, but either I didn't do it with the Ayahuasca one or it got lost.

In hindsight it wasn't very mature. I did extensive research on all of the drugs (A. muscaria was particularly fascinating) but did not always have a babysitter. I had a mild psychosis from cannabis at one point, and a few years later I was diagnosed with GAD and AvPD. Recently, this got reverted to a primary diagnosis of ASD (autism) instead. I also have schizophrenia in my family, though distant, and have memory problems. ASD has severe effects on sensitivity, thus could potentially be dangerous with psychedelics. Perhaps also worth noting that years after I quit recreative drugs usage I had one severe psychosis, triggered by stress.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime#Ayahuasca

Re: Could ayahuasca have health benefits?

#64
post #32
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm, addictions to sugar, caffeine, alcohol and cannabis evaporated during my trip and did not return for many weeks. I had never felt so peaceful and balanced in my life. Whereas previously I was trying to escape chaos with substances, now consuming substances would only serve unbalance me. I felt like, wow, this is what a human being is supposed to feel like! When you face what is within you, and process it…

This is interesting. I only know one person that’s done it and he said the same thing. Kicked all the habits. I didn’t know him before his trip so I assumed he was kind of full of it. Based on my escalating coffee bill maybe I should give this a swing... So are the hallucinations ever “fun”? I’ve dabbled in other things and it has generally been very video game like kidjoy. All ayahuasca hallucinations I’ve read abou…

I'm going to try very hard to describe this. It will not be enough :)

It's more than "fun", much more profound, it's Everything, perhaps the single most important thing. It's ineffable, yet, you still feel obligated to try and explain it, as I'm doing. You may experience total happiness, love, wholeness, but then seconds later experience the exact opposite, total depression, despair, loneliness, humiliation, fear, violence. You may experience a plane of existence where you ARE time, and you see how time affects everything at once, as a result, it's a feeling of timelessness, you can see everything happening, a feeling of eternal existence. Perhaps you will then see that the same way events are connected together to form the feeling of time, in fact, everything you know is connected together in your brain, you can move through any of the connections, not just temporal. You may experience realities similar to your own, perhaps many at once, but you may also be catapulted into a completely geometric and abstract universe of inexplicable nature, but you'll feel as if you understand it, as long as you don't try and describe it in language. You may "see" the fundamental structure of sound and music as your various neural compartments cross-fire and visual cortex processes sound or sound cortex process visual data. You may "see" sexuality. You may see good and evil and the necessary duality of the two. For that matter you may see the dualistic relationship of everything. Everything exists because defining non-existence commands the definition of existence. You may see the fundamental feedback loop where perception meets the internal mental model your brain builds to interpret reality. Wait? feedback loop? You don't even know which side is real, cause-effect is completely broken down, it's now a Strange Loop. You may then see, truly see, that your whole entire known reality, including everything you see and perceive to be "outside" of your body is all actually inside your brain. You're trapped, this is your reality. You will likely discover/meet your inner self, you will realize that the consciousness really is the tip of the iceberg as you get rocketed inward into your deep sub consciousness, which has a mind of it's own. Also, for me, it knew everything I was thinking in advance. So when I'd make a joke or expression it would react with "why are you responding to me, I'm the one that told you what you think", so you learn to just shut up and enjoy the ride. It will likely be so beautiful and significant that you may even question if what you experienced was a divine experience. It will be so intense that you will have had a glimpse as to what a super consciousness or hyper-intelligence may look like, as you become even more aware of how small your conscious mind really is in comparison to the whole. You may feel as if all, everything, every person is connected. For example, the knowledge of good vs evil, and the gradient between, and hot and cold, and temperatures between, are these really different things? After all, in your brain they are both represented as neural connections, a graph if you will. And is it just the interpretation of the neural pattern that gives them meaning? The brain just being a massive network of brain cells, where the fundamental unit is a connection, you may realize, no wonder the foundation of human reasoning is also limited to the notion of stateful logic. Perhaps, after 10 hours of this, you start to want to come back to reality, but you learned something very important this day. You can't go back, you don't, part of you has transcended to Buddha-hood. But you're a stubborn human, you fight to come back, that fighting, rooted in fear, fear is linked to many other negative memories, they may take command of your brain. Have you went crazy? Did you just forgo your conscious existence as you knew it? Then you're sitting there, watching yourself in a mental institution as your family is there crying wondering what happened to you, but communication with them is futile as you have transcended, but part of you, is stuck in that body, for 50 years as you've realized that this infinite experience is just a bit more than you asked for. But that's just one of the many negative things you dream up! Of course, acid is illegal where you lived, so that random sound is the cops showing up and escorting you out. Or perhaps you wake up naked and vulnerable outside, but it's just a trip, as you rock back and forth between the meta-mind-space and all these false realities. (a process called "looping") You face all your fears and inner personal problems, you confront your selfish ego, and all the negative things about yourself, you're embarrassed of yourself as your mind is nakedly exposed. Just as you got to see all the beauty of nature, you also realize how messed up you and everything is. It's hard, very hard, but you face it and accept it. This is what some people call a "bad trip", but to me, that is precisely what made it a "good trip". You eventually grab on to pieces of reality, one at a time, until you finally come all the way back. It takes many hours, and days to process everything. You're never really sure if you ever came back. But you don't mind. You've experienced enlightenment. You're at peace with yourself and the universe, if there's even a difference. You have a new appreciation for everything. But similarly, you also realize the empty, void of meaning nature of the universe. For some people this is all too much. For me, this was the ultimate lens into "reality", and gave me a new spark and energy for life that is unparalleled to any previous experience.

A small side note: This feels very great to have finally shared. It has been melting inside me to get out.

Re: Could ayahuasca have health benefits?

#65
post #61
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which drug? Context matters. Salvia can be a very negative experience and has allegedly caused suicides. DMT is almost a universally euphoric and positive experience although not Ayahausca. I have never heard of anyone committing suicide after either. The big problem with psychedelics is how people spread fear and uncertainty. Try sharing the death statistics for alcohol the next time you share a bottle of wine with…

Salvia is, for me, is quite rough. But I can't imagine it causing suicide. What's the progression/causation there? Or do we just not have enough data to know?

It would likely be quite difficult to ethically do such a study. Correlation alone isn't compelling: it could simply be that the underlying reason a significant share of people turn to [insert mind-altering substance here] is underlying emotional suffering, trauma, etc. and if the substance doesn't offer any improvement they end up resorting to suicide.

Re: Could ayahuasca have health benefits?

#66

Having had frequent ceremonies over the course of several months I stopped drinking the tea, because I find it is not helping being pulled from one extreme into another. Our western way of life makes it very difficult to integrate the profound experiences that one can get through this medicine and it requires major commitments to change..and it requires good helpers and facilitators. We, as westerners, are often time…

Or psychoactive drugs don’t teach you anything new but rather modify brain functionality such that you feel different. Gaining new belief or believing you have new beliefs are typically indistinguishable from the inside.

Re: Could ayahuasca have health benefits?

#67
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't need this daily coffee and sugar fix anymore. In the same way, some people just stop being "addicted" to life in general after strong trip. Some of them decide to commit suicide. Just yesterday, I've been in party and one guy told story of his friend who committed suicide after such trip. The big problem with psychedelics is that you can't predict in which way a trip could change you.

Which drug? Context matters. Salvia can be a very negative experience and has allegedly caused suicides. DMT is almost a universally euphoric and positive experience although not Ayahausca. I have never heard of anyone committing suicide after either. The big problem with psychedelics is how people spread fear and uncertainty. Try sharing the death statistics for alcohol the next time you share a bottle of wine with…

If salvia is very negative for you then you're doing too much. Sadly most people use salvia "extracts" which are almost guaranteed to be far too much to handle. Stick with plain leaf.

Re: Could ayahuasca have health benefits?

#68
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The functional difference between 'causes schizophrenia' and 'triggers latent schizophrenia' to someone who is diagnosed with schizophrenia after ingesting ayahuasca is practically non-existent. Sure, you can generalize that those with family members who have schizophrenia are at an increased risk of having it rear its head. However, not everyone with schizophrenia gets diagnosed nor do many people have detailed psyc…

Presumably the person with latent schizophrenia would see it emerge at later date even if they didn't take psychedelics. If the drug is only making symptoms emerge earlier, the cost of the trip is only however many years of sanity you had left (say, 5) rather than a lifetime of sanity (~65 years).

My understanding is that 'latent schizophrenia' is a term referring to the predisposition towards developing schizophrenia if certain environmental, social or other stressors trigger it.

It may never truly manifest itself as schizophrenia because of the lack of non-genetic factors involved in the illness.

The nature of schizophrenia isn't that genetics will absolutely determine whether or not someone will develop the disease. One can be diagnosed with prodromal schizophrenia and, with proper intervention, will never be diagnosed as schizophrenic or experience those symptoms again.

To say that the drugs will make symptoms emerge earlier instead of later in life isn't entirely accurate. Those symptoms may _never_ emerge at all, given the right circumstances.

It seems that the 'right circumstances' for those with a predisposition towards developing schizophrenia include never ingesting certain types of drugs.

Re: Could ayahuasca have health benefits?

#69
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting. I only know one person that’s done it and he said the same thing. Kicked all the habits. I didn’t know him before his trip so I assumed he was kind of full of it. Based on my escalating coffee bill maybe I should give this a swing... So are the hallucinations ever “fun”? I’ve dabbled in other things and it has generally been very video game like kidjoy. All ayahuasca hallucinations I’ve read abou…

I'm going to try very hard to describe this. It will not be enough :) It's more than "fun", much more profound, it's Everything, perhaps the single most important thing. It's ineffable, yet, you still feel obligated to try and explain it, as I'm doing. You may experience total happiness, love, wholeness, but then seconds later experience the exact opposite, total depression, despair, loneliness, humiliation, fear, vi…

Three screenfuls of a run on paragraph does not convince me of a desirable outcome.

Re: Could ayahuasca have health benefits?

#70
post #41
post #36

A negative anecdote: a friend of a friend of a friend went on a retreat and did actually lose his mind. He needs help and probably will for the rest of his life. Just putting it out there for some balance. I’ve heard my fair share of positive anecdotes too.

So some guy on the internet says that a friend of a friend of a friend of his lost his mind on Ayahuasca? Based on schizophrenia rates, I suspect pretty much everyone even has a friend of a friend that might catalyze their latent schizophrenia through psychedelics. But, the idea that psychedelics cause mental illness in those that otherwise would have been fine is not supported by scientific evidence[1][2], only anec…

The idea that psychedelics are only harmful to people with "latent" schizophrenia is equally unsupported. It's an old canard that people with a one-sided view of these drugs keep repeating.
Post reply on HN