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Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#31

Post by musage »

fcanela wrote: post #16
gjjrfcbugxbhf wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen no evidence of violent people attacking police. Edit: well that is evidence - not a huge surprise that things have now escalated when you have an armed force shutting down an election.

I am uploading it so you can see it. (Nice downvote before letting me prove my words :) )

Video evidence of other protesters being violent, excusing any and all attacks by police? You're only digging yourself deeper and don't even realize it. By the same token, just one attack by a cop on a non-violent person justified all attacks on cops. By the same token, anything any human ever did to anyone you could be rightfully punished for.

And where is the evidence the woman fell down the stairs? And how do you think "smileys" come across in the context of what seems like covering for brown shirts?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#32

Post by vkou »

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

The Declaration of Independence was also an illegal, treasonous document.

The point of violent suppression of this referendum is optics. Those that fear and despise self-determination don't want to see a referendum result supporting succession.

Even if the referendum is meaningless, that result will be used as justification for later actions. The EU may not endorse an independent Catalan today, but it is more likely to do so if there is a clear message that Catalan wants it.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#33

Post by rasjani »

pjc50 wrote: post #13
wav-part wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fairism is not something you build a stable society with. The individual (usually wealthy) vs majority was the canary.

Eh?

Auto corrected fascism to fairism maybe ? Ruling party in Spain was started by Franco's people.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#35

Post by adambyrtek »

faragon wrote: post #28

The European Union sides with the Spanish Constitution, supporting the rule of law, against the regional nationalist revolt [1]. Also, it seems that Russian "hackers" are helping the rebels [2]. [1] https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/15/inenglish/1505463613_51... [2] https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/28/inenglish/1506588970_02...

This is from BBC which is generally considered a reliable source. Even if the referendum is illegal, it doesn't justify violence against peaceful protesters.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#36

Post by MrPatan »

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

Because the PP, the party in power in Spain, will get political benefit out of conflict in Catalonia, the bloodiest the better.

If by any chance a Catalan terrorist group appears, that's the next several elections sorted.

PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group.

If you're thinking that's stupid and can backfire on them big time, well, I didn't say they were smart.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#37

Post by LoSboccacc »

tomjen3 wrote: post #15

This is basically what we are used to seeing from the middle-east, and from before I was born: South Africa. I don't remember the boycot, but I do remember my parents of talking about it. What, if anything, can we do similarly to apply pressure to Spain? What exports are they depended on? What start-ups are Spanish? Edit: Downvoted for being against beating up people who are trying to vote? Really HN?

Lucky you for having an absolute moral compass that immediately recognizes who’s right and wrong in the conflicts around the world

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#39

Post by throwawayknecht »

bad_user wrote: post #10
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…

The word "referendum" is vague in English, but it's the only term for the least-binding question a government can ask of its citizens. I am not familiar with the Spanish system of autonomies, but in federal systems like the US, small bodies regularly pass referendums, resolutions, and even laws concerning how they will interact with larger ones. Usually without such direct violence, even when the laws conflict.

On a purely practical level, by cracking down on the vote, they only ensure its outcome. See if it passes and then strike down the resulting legal structure in a higher court, at the very least. The constitution of every divided country has measures to deal with these, and the first step is never "cracking skulls."

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#40

Post by pjc50 »

notspanishflu wrote: post #34

I usually see HNers stand against fake news, and post-truth, but here I am watching secessionists brigading Hacker News scot-free.

The events are actually happening are they not? Please can we distinguish between "I don't agree with the politics expressed here" and "the reporting describes events which didn't happen, or misdescribes events that did"?
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