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Edward Snowden: Zcash Is 'Most Interesting Bitcoin Alternative'

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Re: Edward Snowden: Zcash Is 'Most Interesting Bitcoin Alternative'

#131

Post by Fnoord »

tambienben wrote: post #125
Fnoord wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My only point is that having a substantial amount of faith in anyone, when the stakes are high, is folly. Because he has credibility due to his track record. That's the basis of how networking works. The authors of software such as TLS, Whonix, Tor, Tails, Debian, all have a certain amount of credibility within their peers as well as the general public. We stand on the shoulders of giants. Yes, credibility can be a…

>The authors of software such as TLS, Whonix, Tor, Tails, Debian, all have a certain amount of credibility... All of which are open source == independently verifiable. TOR would not be recommended as highly as it is if it were a closed-source binary. >If you claim you cannot trust anyone, how can you live with yourself? Hilarious when people speak down to you like this. You're inflating my (very clear, i feel) statem…

> All of which are open source == independently verifiable.

Sure, sure.

Independently verifiable. That's why we had the Debian OpenSSL PRNG fiasco [1]. Your reponse to deterministic builds? "Not needed, its open source after all, independently verifiable." Of course it is needed, just because its open source doesn't mean you can trust the provided binaries. Heck, there was a time where Debian didn't even sign .deb packages. Also, nevermind the spaghetti of OpenSSL and Heartbleed which lead to BoringSSL and LibreSSL.

Yet, its important to realize we don't assume malice here. We don't assume these people who did this were evil until we have substantial proof. Their track record and positions suggest such as well. We assume they're innocent (albeit, ignorant), and that is BTW also in the HN guidelines.

> Hilarious when people speak down to you like this. You're inflating my (very clear, i feel) statement to mean something I don't think i said.

How so? You claim we should be suspicious of everyone.

At the same time, you provided no proof which suggests we should doubt Snowden's motives, generally or specifically. Only vague rhetoric.

> Its easy to demonize others whom you disagree with

No, stop shifting the blame. YOU are the one who is demonizing someone else (Snowden) without anything to back up your claims. Instead of this theater, put your money where your mouth is and show us your proof.

[1] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/05/random_number...

Re: Edward Snowden: Zcash Is 'Most Interesting Bitcoin Alternative'

#132

Post by Fnoord »

bogomipz wrote: post #121
Fnoord wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, there's no shortage of countries that have good media freedom: https://rsf.org/en/ranking# Cute list, Sweden at #2, I suppose Assange should go to Sweden as well? What you say is completely and utterly irrelevant in the context where the United States of America would use extradition agreements to get Snowden back on US soil, for example by basing themselves on this ridiculous law [1]. Notwithstanding that Snow…

Reporters Without Borders is a 35 year old non-profit institution that promotes and defends freedom of information and freedom of the press around. It's incredibly respected and has local watch-dog offices all over the world. Every time you are confronted with facts and you shift the focus to something else. Now you are discussing Julian Assange? But since you brought him up, he is another one who has taken up refuge…

> Reporters Without Borders is a 35 year old non-profit institution that promotes and defends freedom of information and freedom of the press around. It's incredibly respected and has local watch-dog offices all over the world. Every time you are confronted with facts and you shift the focus to something else. Now you are discussing Julian Assange? But since you brought him up, he is another one who has taken up refuge in a country where censorship is rampant and press freedom is abysmal:

Newsflash Sherlock: Reporters Without Borders credibility isn't related to extradition laws with the USA. Those 2 variables are not affecting each other, yet the latter is very much relevant here for the freedom and perhaps even life of Snowden.

I already told you this once in my previous post, and you carefully dance around that cause it doesn't suit your agenda. What you say regarding RWB is irrelevant, as Snowden wouldn't be long in that country. He'd have been send a one way ticket to the USA instead, and he'd have gotten a secret trial. What matters is looking at the situation and facts as they occurred and being practical. Now you are going to tell us which country Snowden should've fled to instead of Russia. Go ahead, share the magic faerie-tale country which would've been better according to your one criteria of Reporters Without Borders. Then I will tell you 1) the plane from Ecuador didn't stop at that country (and Snowden got stuck in Russia thanks to US action). 2) Furthermore, he wouldn't been long in said country as I already described.

> I'm sure they both appreciate that your doing their bidding though.

And I am sure the US government is pleased you're doing theirs with your baseless character assassinations.

Re: Edward Snowden: Zcash Is 'Most Interesting Bitcoin Alternative'

#133

Post by geofft »

the_stc wrote: post #124
geofft wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to rely on a cryptosystem which means that at a protocol level , the designers can't build in backdoors for police even if they want to . Then I don't have to worry about their public statements. Maybe they're firmly ideologically opposed today and get a court order tomorrow. (This is exactly what happened with well-intentioned scam artist Ladar Levison: he built a system that didn't have the cryptographic pro…

I am unable to judge zcash and must rely on other cues. So when the founders seem to be saying they're OK with backdoors, it makes me think hey, given the chance maybe there's something they could do. Anyways once they get mandatory shielded transactions I'll look at it in more depth and see if I can get comfortable.

> I am unable to judge zcash and must rely on other cues. So when the founders seem to be saying they're OK with backdoors, it makes me think hey, given the chance maybe there's something they could do.

This approach is vulnerable to an easy attack: get government funding, design a cryptosystem with lots of backdoors, and proudly proclaim that you will never add one and you will absolutely stand up to the government.

I think you should find a better way to evaluate cryptosystems.

Re: Edward Snowden: Zcash Is 'Most Interesting Bitcoin Alternative'

#134

Post by tambienben »

Fnoord wrote: post #131
tambienben wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The authors of software such as TLS, Whonix, Tor, Tails, Debian, all have a certain amount of credibility... All of which are open source == independently verifiable. TOR would not be recommended as highly as it is if it were a closed-source binary. >If you claim you cannot trust anyone, how can you live with yourself? Hilarious when people speak down to you like this. You're inflating my (very clear, i feel) statem…

> All of which are open source == independently verifiable. Sure, sure. Independently verifiable. That's why we had the Debian OpenSSL PRNG fiasco [1]. Your reponse to deterministic builds? "Not needed, its open source after all, independently verifiable." Of course it is needed, just because its open source doesn't mean you can trust the provided binaries. Heck, there was a time where Debian didn't even sign .deb pa…

>YOU are the one who is demonizing someone else (Snowden)

Demonizing, no. Simply expressing a lack of faith in human nature.

Re: Edward Snowden: Zcash Is 'Most Interesting Bitcoin Alternative'

#135

Post by EGreg »

ewillbefull wrote: post #60
SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> zk-SNARKs are totally private even if ... the cryptographic assumptions underlying zk-SNARKs fall apart On the face of it, that sounds very wrong. Could you elaborate on what you were saying?

Zero-knowledge proofs for a given statement, by definition, reveal nothing about its witness. zk-SNARKs (used by Zcash) are statistically zero-knowledge; there are no cryptographic assumptions involved.

As a slight aside, I always wondered if zero-knowledge proofs really reveal "slight" knowledge.

That is, if I ask 1 billion questions about a resource, and get true, verifiable answers, can't I find out something about it? For example, some projection onto a linear subspace or something.

Re: Edward Snowden: Zcash Is 'Most Interesting Bitcoin Alternative'

#136

Post by EGreg »

kobeya wrote: post #99
gojomo wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand correctly a recent presentation by Eli Ben-Sasson, one of ZCash's scientists, there is now at least one ZK system with this 'transparent' property (needing no trusted setup), but it is not yet practical for a blockchain currency. See Ben-Sasson on "STARK": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ9K_o-RRSY

Maybe. The STARK paper hasn't been published yet as far as I know. All we have is claims.

Well, as I said, there's gotta be a way. It just has to be invented and tried :)

Re: Edward Snowden: Zcash Is 'Most Interesting Bitcoin Alternative'

#137

Post by plasticmachine »

knocte wrote: post #89
kobeya wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... that's a system with entirely different properties.

And? It provides privacy.

I’m a massive MW proponent but the privacy claims are very weak compared to ZCash and Monero. What MW does well is scalability.

Re: Edward Snowden: Zcash Is 'Most Interesting Bitcoin Alternative'

#138

Post by Fnoord »

tambienben wrote: post #134
Fnoord wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of which are open source == independently verifiable. Sure, sure. Independently verifiable. That's why we had the Debian OpenSSL PRNG fiasco [1]. Your reponse to deterministic builds? "Not needed, its open source after all, independently verifiable." Of course it is needed, just because its open source doesn't mean you can trust the provided binaries. Heck, there was a time where Debian didn't even sign .deb pa…

>YOU are the one who is demonizing someone else (Snowden) Demonizing, no. Simply expressing a lack of faith in human nature.

My previous posts assert your lack of faith has double standards.

Re: Edward Snowden: Zcash Is 'Most Interesting Bitcoin Alternative'

#139

Post by geofft »

bogomipz wrote: post #118
geofft wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similarly his Twitter profile shows he is the President at @FreedomofPress, yet he takes refuge in a country that that is one of the most deplorable in terms of media freedom. That's because we live in a world where there is no country that's good at media freedom. We have the US, which is interested in exposing Russia's crimes and hiding its own; Russia, which is interested in exposing the US's crimes and hiding i…

>"That's because we live in a world where there is no country that's good at media freedom" No, there's no shortage of countries that have good media freedom: https://rsf.org/en/ranking# >"We have the US, which is interested in exposing Russia's crimes and hiding its own; Russia, which is interested in exposing the US's crimes and hiding its own," Please name one crime that the US media hid from the American people?…

> Please name one crime that the US media hid from the American people? Everything and everyone in the US is fair game.

1. I said US (as in the government), not US media.

2. You, uh, realize we're in a thread about Edward Snowden, right? Are you familiar with what he did?

> the point is he emigrates to Putin's Russia and then becomes President at @FreedomofPress.

So? What is this point relevant to?

Re: Edward Snowden: Zcash Is 'Most Interesting Bitcoin Alternative'

#140

Post by the_stc »

neuro_imager wrote: post #129
the_stc wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am unable to judge zcash and must rely on other cues. So when the founders seem to be saying they're OK with backdoors, it makes me think hey, given the chance maybe there's something they could do. Anyways once they get mandatory shielded transactions I'll look at it in more depth and see if I can get comfortable.

A couple questions: - Aren't zerocoin and zerocash two different currencies? Did you mean to say zerocash in your previous comment? - If what Matt Green is saying is true, is there a way to create a backdoor in Monero or any other new crypto that comes along? - One of the reservations that I have around z-cash is the "don't roll your own crypto" mantra even if you are an experienced, academic cryptographer? Is z-cash…

I know, but it's the history of the person I'm looking at. Monero could well have weaknesses. That's why I don't rely on it. In fact, I know it has weaknesses. Monero's problem is they do not adequately tell people how to use it safely. The marketing is all about how Monero is safe, not about its limitation. Dangerous game for them to play.

It's not about rolling own crypto. My understanding is that zcash is more risky due to the newer concepts involved.

This is all theoretical right now anyways. Without more support for shielded transactions, it isn't feasible to use zcash to clean Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies. Exchange volumes of XMR-ZEC are also too small from what I can see to make stacking them useful.

That said, we are reconsidering things. We will probably add zcash as a payment method sometime this week.

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