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Ask HN: I may have been spun. Is there anything I can do about it?

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Re: Ask HN: I may have been spun. Is there anything I can do about it?

#31
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't. Same content from multiple domain names pointing back to the original is against Google ToS, and you might lose your PageRank unless you're Jason Calacanis in which case it's fine.

Would you provide the relevant ToS for that claim please?

It's from the 'Google Webmaster Guidelines', located here:

http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answe...

"Don't create multiple pages, subdomains, or domains with substantially duplicate content."

Re: Ask HN: I may have been spun. Is there anything I can do about it?

#32
post #24
post #6

All the people saying it is copyright violation are probably right. But, I don't think it's worth the effort and money (perhaps you will have to get a lawyer...). If at all, just contact the site where they posted it and report the copyright violation. Describe what you think what happened and wait what (and if) they answer. Most of the time, they won't bother and just remove the text. Much better use of your time is…

All the people saying it is a copyright violation are in fact wrong. Copyright protects a specific expression of an idea or group of ideas. It does not address the use of a copyrighted work as a template for generating other copyrighted works that use alternate expressions. If you create a copyrighted work that consists of the phrase "The rain in Spain falls mostly on the plain." and someone comes along and very care…

Really? So how do you align that with e.g.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work or the 'without prejudice' clause in art. 2.3 of the Berne Convention?

Re: Ask HN: I may have been spun. Is there anything I can do about it?

#33
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you provide the relevant ToS for that claim please?

It's from the 'Google Webmaster Guidelines', located here: http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answe... "Don't create multiple pages, subdomains, or domains with substantially duplicate content."

substantially isn't really defined. and if you submit them to article directories and the like... whose responsibility is it?

Oh yeah, don't point to the original article, build it to your landers :)

Re: Ask HN: I may have been spun. Is there anything I can do about it?

#34
post #32
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the people saying it is a copyright violation are in fact wrong. Copyright protects a specific expression of an idea or group of ideas. It does not address the use of a copyrighted work as a template for generating other copyrighted works that use alternate expressions. If you create a copyrighted work that consists of the phrase "The rain in Spain falls mostly on the plain." and someone comes along and very care…

Really? So how do you align that with e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work or the 'without prejudice' clause in art. 2.3 of the Berne Convention?

A mere claim that something is a deriviative work doesn't make it so; you'd have to show priority, connection and derivation. All of which are trickier than you'd think. If a company sends out a press release and two bloggers write stories about that company that are substantively similar but not word for word identical and one of them accused the other of copying, that would be a difficult case to prove.

Generally speaking a derivative work implies the overt appropriation of elements of the original; for instance if you write a novel about the rich inner life of Ernst Stavro Blofeld, that would be derivative of Ian Fleming's body of work. If however, you write a novel about a spy with a sex addiction problem who works for the Dutch Secret service and is blond and you very carefully avoid duplicating any precise plot points from any of the James Bond novels, it may be derivative in the sense that it's obvious you were emulating Ian Fleming, but it would not legally be a derived work.

Re: Ask HN: I may have been spun. Is there anything I can do about it?

#35
post #18
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have effectively created an entirely new document espousing all of the same ideas as yours, IMO, that describes the situation well > and on which you would not have any copyright claims. That is also my understanding, unless I could somehow prove that they violated my copyright in the construction of this work. For instance, if one could prove that my copyrighted content was fed into a spinning algorithm to ge…

First, you need to stop thinking in terms of 'algorithms' and 'spinning'. It's irrelevant and confuses the discussion. I understand how tempting it is to frame new concepts (law) in terms of things you understand (computers) but it's very dangerous territory. It's also (this is not to bash you personally, just a general remark) why 95% of legal chatter amongst technical people on the internet is meaningless to lawyer…

> It's meaningless to argue about 'levels of similarity', in a legal context. The question is whether the second author based himself on the artistic values that the original author put in the work.

That's an excellent point, and I understand that. But as a practical matter, it seems like "levels of similarity" would be at the heart of an argument that document B was "based on" document A. Having direct evidence that B was based on A seems a less likely scenario, although a legally much more straightforward one.

To take your play example, I may assert your script was based on my book, but if you deny it I'm stuck with trying to demonstrate that the similarities between the two are above and beyond what we'd expect from mere coincidence, right?

> So if someone blends two works into one (without permission), he's violating 2 author's copyrights.

This is more in the realm of philosophy than legality, but what I was getting at is this: I think there's a pretty strong and conventional argument to be made that much of what we call "creativity" is really a synthesis of pre-existing works and pre-existing ideas. At some point we start to consider this synthesis more inspiration than plagiarism. Intellectually I think it is interesting to consider where that line lies. (And, taking us back to the world of algorithms, whether you could claim, for instance, that a sophisticated enough markov-chain, given a large and diverse enough body of input, is eventually creating new works rather than simply synthesizing existing ones.)

Re: Ask HN: I may have been spun. Is there anything I can do about it?

#36
Going to reiterate what some people have said here already. Chances are you can't do anything. This is the internet after all. There's a small chance the person will take down the content just from a polite email from you. Assuming this won't work the only other course of action is spending $$. This route will be a money sink for you so the only reason to do this is ego or you just have money to burn.

Re: Ask HN: I may have been spun. Is there anything I can do about it?

#37
post #33
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's from the 'Google Webmaster Guidelines', located here: http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answe... "Don't create multiple pages, subdomains, or domains with substantially duplicate content."

substantially isn't really defined. and if you submit them to article directories and the like... whose responsibility is it? Oh yeah, don't point to the original article, build it to your landers :)

If you own the article directories yourself, you're making additional domains. If you don't, that's fine, as I understand it.

Re: Ask HN: I may have been spun. Is there anything I can do about it?

#38
post #37
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

substantially isn't really defined. and if you submit them to article directories and the like... whose responsibility is it? Oh yeah, don't point to the original article, build it to your landers :)

If you own the article directories yourself, you're making additional domains. If you don't, that's fine, as I understand it.

It would be a pain in the ass to make a bunch of well ranked article directories just to spin your content for 1 product. I have to assume just submitting it to other people's sites.

Re: Ask HN: I may have been spun. Is there anything I can do about it?

#39
post #34
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? So how do you align that with e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work or the 'without prejudice' clause in art. 2.3 of the Berne Convention?

A mere claim that something is a deriviative work doesn't make it so; you'd have to show priority, connection and derivation. All of which are trickier than you'd think. If a company sends out a press release and two bloggers write stories about that company that are substantively similar but not word for word identical and one of them accused the other of copying, that would be a difficult case to prove. Generally s…

> A mere claim that something is a deriviative work doesn't make it so

Obviously. But there is no way to tell from the OP's story. The way the OP presented the facts, the interpretation is that it's a derivative work. Someone took his text and shuffled it around just enough to make it not word for word identical. How the dice will roll in court is always tricky to say, and impossible in a case where you only have a general description of the facts, and only from one party at that.

The point is that a derivative work is protected just like the original. The evidence is a whole other matter, one that nobody, in this particular case, can judge from the information given.

Re: Ask HN: I may have been spun. Is there anything I can do about it?

#40
post #30
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, you need to stop thinking in terms of 'algorithms' and 'spinning'. It's irrelevant and confuses the discussion. This is HN, not a court of law. It is entirely appropriate to use technical language here. I think if you understood what 'spinning' was you'd see that it was relevant to the legal situation even if these exact words may never be used in a legal action (although the very pre-existence of concrete s…

> It is entirely appropriate to use technical language here. Of course. I'm not telling anyone what to do. What I meant was, that to understand the legal issues, the explanations in these terms are irrelevant and obfuscate the thought processes that lead to the legal understanding of the situation. I understand perfectly what spinning is. But 'algorithmic spinning' is irrelevant in this context. It's not about the le…

> One shouldn't think about legal issues in quantitative ways.

What about evidence? Presumably the copyright 'deriver' isn't just going to honestly detail how they stole the work. Surely an important part of the evidence is going to be what process was used to derive the work? If it can be established that an existing software package would produce an identical derivation surely that would be an important part of the evidence. Without understanding the processes of transformation (i.e. the spinning process) it may not be possible to accurately gauge the likelihood of the work having been derived versus a coincidence. This all seems to be firmly in the realm of quantities to me.

> It's this technocratically warped world view that lies at the basis of the bigger part of misunderstandings about the legal field and how it relates to technology.

I think the 'technocratically warped world view' is based on the notion that the function of the legal system is ultimately to serve society - not the other way around. Given that technological change is the major driver of social change it will necessarily also drive changes in the legal system. Situations where ancient laws and ignorant judges determine cases represent failures of the legal system and the more it fails the less relevant and powerful it must become for society to flourish. Inevitably it will be the legal system that needs to 'warp' itself towards the technocratic one rather than the other way around. Of course what I'm talking about is a medium/long term trend. Anyone expecting this to happen in any individual legal case would be making a big mistake.

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