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Why Does Sweden Have So Many Startups?

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Re: Why Does Sweden Have So Many Startups?

#161

Post by jk2323 »

flexie wrote: post #76
Loic wrote: post #69

The most important quote: "Sweden’s impressive start-up record can also be attributed to some broader aspects of how the country is set up. Its social safety net, for instance, helps entrepreneurs feel safe to take risks. In Sweden, university is free, and students can get loans for living expenses, which allows anyone to pursue higher education. Health care is free too, and childcare is heavily subsidized. None of t…

Other Scandinavian countries are also doing quite well, way beyond what their size would suggest. But also well beyond other countries with developed welfare systems, such as France. I think these discussions always miss one key factor: Language. If you don't speak English quite well at an early age (already at 10-13 years old) you are much less likely to get into software development at an early age. If you don't ge…

HTML was created in Switzerland. Linux in Finland. Not sure what "software" companies are for you. Google? Well, China has enough Internet counterparts (Tencent, Wechat, Alibaba etc.). Softbank (Japan) just bought ARM (UK). Regarding "software" companies like Microsoft, SAP (DE) is quite a decent size. Nokia (Fi) was once leading edge too. Sure you have not heard about Skype and Transferwise, but they do exist. Maybe you should come out of your little bubble once in a while?

Re: Why Does Sweden Have So Many Startups?

#162

Post by yolio »

mixedbit wrote: post #87

With Swedish high cost of living, is it feasible to bootstrap a product company there (a company that needs time to build something to sell) or is an outside investment the only feasible path for such companies?

I don't think so. It used to be like 10-15 years ago when many of these startups were created, but things have changed since then. Many people are in denial though since they already have their education, apartment and insurance.

It used to be possible (or at least not impossible) to rent an fairly cheap apartment close to the city and find a way to do something on your own. Conditions for getting a student loan, leave of absence or unemployment used to be more favorable.

Since 10 years ago the government have been actively trying to get more people to work. With the consequence that it is harder to do anything else. Studying, getting unemployment (risking your job) and living (housing costs have doubled) has all become harder to do. Most people these days would risk their job or apartment and do something on their own, because chances are will have a significant reduction in life quality if they fail.

Most startup activities these days seem to be running around cocktail parties trying to get (more) investors for you local clone of something else. Which is understandable, people need to pay their mortgage and attain social standing, but it's largely the opposite of what has made some Swedish startups successful in the first place.

One could try getting investments. But while Sweden is in generally has high degree of equality, it can also be very insular. Especially in recent times as social status matters a lot. You shouldn't expect to show up and compete based on your ideas. It's very much "who you know".

Re: Why Does Sweden Have So Many Startups?

#163

Post by yolio »

Grustaf wrote: post #95

I think more important than the welfare system (potential entrepreneurs probably don't see welfare as their backup solution anyway) is that the quality of life depends so much less on income than in say the US, so people are not that worried about earning less for a few years. You still get the same healthcare and education, the same access to sports (even golf!) and nature (very important for us), and since there is…

I think that's true. But it's also that he Swedish concept of welfare has traditionally included the broader concept of "the welfare state". Meaning that welfare doesn't just apply to social security as such but the availability and quality of housing, education, care, transport and, as you say, even recreational activities.

It's not that sport organizations in Sweden are open to everyone out of the goodness of their hearts (though I think many people support it). It's because they are required to if they want to be registered as non-profits, receive government funding, rent subsidized facilities owned by the state etc.

Re: Why Does Sweden Have So Many Startups?

#164

Post by flexie »

jk2323 wrote: post #161
flexie wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other Scandinavian countries are also doing quite well, way beyond what their size would suggest. But also well beyond other countries with developed welfare systems, such as France. I think these discussions always miss one key factor: Language. If you don't speak English quite well at an early age (already at 10-13 years old) you are much less likely to get into software development at an early age. If you don't ge…

HTML was created in Switzerland. Linux in Finland. Not sure what "software" companies are for you. Google? Well, China has enough Internet counterparts (Tencent, Wechat, Alibaba etc.). Softbank (Japan) just bought ARM (UK). Regarding "software" companies like Microsoft, SAP (DE) is quite a decent size. Nokia (Fi) was once leading edge too. Sure you have not heard about Skype and Transferwise, but they do exist. Maybe…

HTML was based on the ideas of a British national, Tim Berners-Lee. He spoke English. So did Linus Thorvalds, and the founders of Skype and Transferwise.

ARM and Nokia are/were not mainly software companies, but producers of chips and cell phones (where software is a part).

Not sure what bubble you are talking about.

Re: Why Does Sweden Have So Many Startups?

#165

Post by somecontext »

erikbye wrote: post #148
silvestrov wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are rich as a society, not as individuals. They don't have a neighbour who has created a multi-million dollar company.

Exactly. Median income in Norway is scary low, especially for single-person households. https://www.ssb.no/en/inntekt-og-forbruk/nokkeltall

In case anyone is interested, Statistics Norway believes that the median after tax income for households consisting of persons living alone under 45 years old was 280,200 NOK/year in 2015. The exchange rate with the dollar varies of course, but this is somewhere between 33,300--38400 USD/year.

This report https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio... suggests that the median income of non-family households in the United States was ~33,800 USD/year, before taxes but after cash transfers from the government.

I am not sure how to compare the before and after tax measures, but even if I could, there are still many remaining differences between the United States and Norway. Also note that the two groups being compared are not the same, because of the age restriction.

Re: Why Does Sweden Have So Many Startups?

#166

Post by taysic »

amigoingtodie wrote: post #124
ajpkco wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say Spotify, Skype and King (Candy Crush) are good examples. I'd count Mojang (Minecraft) too.

I thought Skype was initially based in Estonia?

According to the Wikipedia article: "Skype was founded in 2003 by Niklas Zennström, from Sweden, and Janus Friis, from Denmark.[30] The Skype software was created by Estonians Ahti Heinla, Priit Kasesalu, and Jaan Tallinn. "

Re: Why Does Sweden Have So Many Startups?

#167

Post by cabalamat »

jk2323 wrote: post #159
mlevental wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you don't speak English quite well at an early age (already at 10-13 years old) you are much less likely to get into software development at an early age. china and russia beg to differ?

Why would this matter? There are more than enough books in the local languages about programming. Formerly it may have mattered if you can afford a computer. But prices have come down so far that this is not an issue anymore. Hey, you could use a Raspberry with a keyboard and attach it to a TV to learn how to program.

> There are more than enough books in the local languages about programming.

Depends what you're looking for. E.g. for many libraries/APIs there is documentation in English and no other language.

Re: Why Does Sweden Have So Many Startups?

#168

Post by Grustaf »

yolio wrote: post #163
Grustaf wrote: post #95

I think more important than the welfare system (potential entrepreneurs probably don't see welfare as their backup solution anyway) is that the quality of life depends so much less on income than in say the US, so people are not that worried about earning less for a few years. You still get the same healthcare and education, the same access to sports (even golf!) and nature (very important for us), and since there is…

I think that's true. But it's also that he Swedish concept of welfare has traditionally included the broader concept of "the welfare state". Meaning that welfare doesn't just apply to social security as such but the availability and quality of housing, education, care, transport and, as you say, even recreational activities. It's not that sport organizations in Sweden are open to everyone out of the goodness of their…

Regarding sports there is nothing stopping anyone from starting an entirely profit driven club, like most gyms for example, as far as I know. I think it's mostly a matter of tradition. And the financial support you get for that type of broadly run organisation, not just sport. But that too speaks to the egalitarian traditions.

Re: Why Does Sweden Have So Many Startups?

#169

Post by yolio »

bjourne wrote: post #93
z3t4 wrote: post #71

Sweden have good working morale and extremely high unemployment rates among young people that often have high education. If you start a tech company you will be flooded with applications and you can cherry pick talents. The entry wage for developers are around $25,000 year, yes year, not monthly!

Yup, that is the backside. I'm a Swede and patriotic enough to like my country, but engineering salaries are abysmal. You don't get rich by working. :) Pay ranges are usually also set by age, so there is little room to improve your salary by being extra competent. Your salary number is off the mark though. Median pre-tax income is roughly double that.

I'm not sure that's true. Sweden regularly feature quite far up on these "highest engineering salaries" lists [0]. I think Swedes have adopted sort of a strange outlook these days. Maybe because of avoiding the financial crisis, or at least thinking they did. People attend university for 5+ years, vacation three times a year, get into huge debt 'buying' an apartment or summer home, get a large brand name car and go on long parental leave. Preferably before hitting 30. The result being that private debt is larger than ever and the government has been selling assets like never before to keep the people happy. All great things of course, but unlikely to make one rich (at least by working).

There's no problem getting rich by working in Sweden if you keep your costs in check (which is hard to do these days), don't over educate yourself (also hard with high youth unemployment) and eschew some of the social benefits by working in less comfortable conditions (which is becoming the default anyways).

Doesn't mean you'll be super rich just by working of course, but that's not really true anywhere. At least not if your family isn't already. If it's really a priority one could of course leverage the competitiveness of most Swedes education, attitude and knowledge of languages by going to Zurich, London or (a large city in) the US for a few years.

[0] e.g. https://www.daxx.com/article/it-salaries-software-developer-...

Re: Why Does Sweden Have So Many Startups?

#170

Post by xfer »

nnq wrote: post #127
flexie wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still doesn't explain why I can't name a hugely popular programming language, library or framework created by a French programmer but several by Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, and Dutch, all small countries but where English is a very strong second language. I'm sure there are great French programmers and programming languages, but doesn't is strike you as remarkable that there are not more? From a country of 5 million (…

There's a ton of French influence in software: Symfony, OCaml, lots of Java stuff... But I treat "made in France" like a warning label for anything software, hard to explain exactly why :) I guess it might be because they have very few self-thought people (probably because university is decent and free) that have that "intuition for how to simplify stuff and make it obvious and grok-able" (academic education tends to…

Yes, PHP is a very well-thought language compared to Ocaml, right? Really KISS principle. /s

There are lots of incredible good software and research (mostly out of INRIA) from France.

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