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IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

nytimes.com

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Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#241

Post by scholia »

pm90 wrote: post #218
scholia wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do really good American developers actually want to work for IBM? Serious question....

Yes.

Why? The company has reported declining revenues for 21 quarters -- more than five years -- is shedding tens of thousands of staff, doesn't generally pay high wages, has no market-leading products, and has a less sexy image than Apple, Amazon, Google, Facebook, Microsoft and practically every other significant IT company.

(I did say American developers, not Indian developers....)

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#242

Post by PopsiclePete »

blizkreeg wrote: post #84
pavanred wrote: post #42

Everyone seems to be making the assumption that all the work IBM India does is outsourced from US. IBM India is the biggest domestic IT player in India with clients like Airtel, Indian Railways, HDFC etc.; IBM India also services clients from other countries in the world (which wouldn't have happened otherwise because its too expensive in the US). And, IBM India, has a few research labs setup that do independent rese…

You're getting a little defensive here. IBM was one of the crown jewels of American industry. It was an iconic company in its time. The fact that it now employs more people in India than the US is something to ponder. It isn't so much about the merits of outsourcing. Everything can be done cheaper by getting it done in another part of the world. Should it be? Sometimes the answer is yes, at other times, not. Imagine…

What you're seeing isn't IBM being unethical, but more like nation-states being outdated concepts.

The IT industry is the first truly global industry. I can do my job from a coffee shop in NYC, a mountain monastery in Tibet, or a beach in Cancun. I just need my trusty laptop and WiFi access.

And yet, even though I'm the same person, doing the same work, I get taxed differently, I pay different prices for the same goods, and the cost of living is vastly different. Why should I be "allowed" to do work for IBM from the NYC coffee-shop but not the from Cancun beach? Would the product of my brain's labor be vastly different? Does me hopping on a plane and committing code from a different longitude and latitude make me a less-deserving person?

And yes, Indian jobs should get outsourced to another country - if it makes sense. Why not? Why do we have "protected" classes of people? And who gets to decide who's protected?

Software is truly unique like that - you can collaborate with people you've never seen face-to-face, different perspectives, different cultures, but all working towards a common goal. I'm not aware of any other industry you can do that.

And you expect IBM to just sit there quietly, while told, "Hire Jim, not Srinivas, because although Srinivas can do the exact same work for 1/10th the cost, Jim, being American, is a more important human being, your competitive advantage be damned" ?

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#243

Post by rifung »

wbl wrote: post #155
nikanj wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The numbers look similar in Vancouver and Toronto. It seems to be an emergent trend in the global housing markets.

Except Tokyo, Vienna, Montreal, Germany. Almost like we could apply their policies in SV.

Apologies for my ignorance but I was under the impression that residents of Tokyo live in extremely tiny apartments due to cost. Is that wrong?

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#244

Post by lovich »

pm90 wrote: post #209
jordanb wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah 2002-2005 or so the conventional wisdom is that there wouldn't be software written in America anymore -- that companies were going to beat a path to Asia just like they'd done in textiles and furniture. Economists explained that software is a highly "tradeable good" and Asia -- especially India -- was filled with millions of highly educated cheap programmers. Given that the number of people employed in software…

> I would say that software development has been good to me so far as a career, but I still think I would hesitate to encourage a young person in America to pursue it. This is absolutely terrible advice. Please do not ruin some young American's life with this advice. Technology seems to be one are where the demand seems to always outstrip supply, and a person trained in Computer Science would be capable of learning n…

San Francisco seems to be the only place where that holds true, and I say that not having tried to get a job there. The average length of time for engineers I know of trying to get a new job is 3-4 months. Any one of us could easily be a shit engineer but its in the 10s of people now. While that's better than a lot of industries now, that doesn't mean that demand outstripped supply. Its just at an ok point. If demand was much higher you'd see salaries rising rapidly at least and I know of few companies that are willing to give significant raises to keep someone vs hiring someone new. Why else is there advice to job hop so frequently to increase your salary?

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#245

Post by [deleted] »

chrshawkes wrote: post #228
padiyar83 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> By not paying a competitive salary, those IBM offices in India are lacking the deep experience of western programmers. 1. IBM offices and most multinationals do pay competitive salary in India. We have the same problem with retaining talent in India that we have in US. Its hard to retain good programmers. 2.Thanks to US immigration system, you do find a lot of folks with deep experience working for firms in US for…

But those policies derived from American companies. Say Indian Programmers takes those policies and apply them, will they become the next trend setters in the entire IT industry or will smaller engineering companies continue to set the trends and standards in the USA? I'm still banking on American workers to prove these companies wrong via innovation from within our borders, boycotting software companies who offshore…

[deleted]

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#246

Post by azinman2 »

adventured wrote: post #203
BeetleB wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>IBM came out of the US for the exact same reason Fairchild, Intel, Cisco, Silicon Graphics, Motorola, Texas Instruments, HP, Sun, Xerox, AMD, Apple, Qualcomm, etc. all did. By that reasoning, IBM is outsourcing from the US for exactly the same reason virtually all the other companies you listed are. Sure, something about the US helped them to exist and thrive. And something about the US is helping them to outsource.…

> By that reasoning, IBM is outsourcing from the US for exactly the same reason virtually all the other companies you listed are. Of course. Most of the outsourcing has been about labor costs. The US has among the highest labor costs on the the planet, the nations (Vietnam, China, India, Mexico, etc) that the US has heavily outsourced to - whether manufacturing or IT - are or were far lower net cost nations to do tho…

And yet it’s still the top economy. I don’t buy this narrative — if regulations and taxes were such a problem, the US would have never climbed to the position it’s at.

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#247

Post by hesarenu »

matwood wrote: post #188
hesarenu wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think any competent underpaid developer would eventually move on.

Of course. The point was that outsourcing was 'supposed to be cheap'. The reality is that for many situations it is not cheap, and is less expensive in the long run to pay a dev 100k or whatever the local market rate is instead.

The outsourced guy would eventually figure out that he is been paid way less for more or less same work. so they would move to better paying job. You would need to find a amount which is cheaper then US but way more then local market.

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#248

Post by Dowwie »

What's missing from the discussion here is the business that IBM receives from the United States government-- Billions of dollars in contracts. If you are unhappy with IBM's practices, let your elected House officials know why. They may be able to do something about that.

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#249

Post by abiox »

794CD01 wrote: post #126
flarg wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've actually worked with and managed international teams for a number of major consultancy companies and outside of silicon valley I don't see much difference in skillsets and proficiency between the US, Europe and India.

Right, which is why the people who assume there is one are racists.

it doesn't seem to me that people are considering things in terms of the "indian race" (if there is such a thing).

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#250

Post by pm90 »

lovich wrote: post #244
pm90 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would say that software development has been good to me so far as a career, but I still think I would hesitate to encourage a young person in America to pursue it. This is absolutely terrible advice. Please do not ruin some young American's life with this advice. Technology seems to be one are where the demand seems to always outstrip supply, and a person trained in Computer Science would be capable of learning n…

San Francisco seems to be the only place where that holds true, and I say that not having tried to get a job there. The average length of time for engineers I know of trying to get a new job is 3-4 months. Any one of us could easily be a shit engineer but its in the 10s of people now. While that's better than a lot of industries now, that doesn't mean that demand outstripped supply. Its just at an ok point. If demand…

Giving raises to existing employees is not related to demand and supply at all, but to other institutional reasons. Managers have more freedom to give offer higher salaries to attract good talent, than they have to offer super high raises, which can also cause discord among teams unless you offer raises to everyone, which may be more money than the manager can afford.

Of course it depends on the market, but I disagree that is just SF. Seattle, NYC, SoCal (LA, San Diego etc.), Boston, Austin all have a thriving tech sector, although Bay Area still far outstrips them in demand and compensation.

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