Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

newyorker.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 279 posts

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#241

Post by ux-app »

_urga wrote: post #230
ux-app wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

dude, c'mon get real. I've read the old testament. It's brutal. Yahwe loved him some genocide.

Would you say that God had no right to judge the Canaanites after waiting 400 years for them to stop their child sacrifice? Melvin Tinker provides historical background on the Canaanites and the question of justice vs genocide here: https://www.amazon.com/Mass-Destruction-Melvin-Tinker/dp/178...

idiot God from the OT sanctioned the murder of Egyptian babies, so I don't think he had the high ground there ;)

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#242

Post by _urga »

ux-app wrote: post #234
coldtea wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why try to whitewash the bible? Understanding (and understanding in context) is not whitewashing. There's excellent scholarship in the bible, from religious and non-religious authors. Knee-jerk reactions about "vile psychopaths" are not that. For one, the "old testament Jehovah" was the person who gave life, the universe and everything to the people who died (e.g. in Sodom) anyway. So it was his to take. Psychopath…

> So it was his to take fuck off, that's gross. as humans if we ever create AI we'll (hopefully) do it in the context of a robust ethical framework, and yet all knowing Jehovah couldn't fucking do some due diligence? Jesus fucking Christ, how pathetic of him.

"if we ever create AI we'll (hopefully) do it in the context of a robust ethical framework"

There are no grounds (rational or otherwise) for objective morality outside of God.

See Hume's "is-ought" dilemma.

And if you're into Atheism see also Sam Harris' debate with William Lane Craig.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#243

Post by _urga »

ux-app wrote: post #241
_urga wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say that God had no right to judge the Canaanites after waiting 400 years for them to stop their child sacrifice? Melvin Tinker provides historical background on the Canaanites and the question of justice vs genocide here: https://www.amazon.com/Mass-Destruction-Melvin-Tinker/dp/178...

idiot God from the OT sanctioned the murder of Egyptian babies, so I don't think he had the high ground there ;)

I may be an idiot, but personally, I would find it hard to believe in a God who never sanctioned judgement, who never advocated justice at all. That would be truly evil.

As far as the Egyptian first-born, was God not patient and slow to anger? Was that the first plague or the last plague? How many years had the Egyptians oppressed another people? How many Israelite children did the Egyptians not kill? Did the punishment not fit the crime? Is God not just?

‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’

“Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

“Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just. If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so. Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#244

Post by ux-app »

_urga wrote: post #243
ux-app wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

idiot God from the OT sanctioned the murder of Egyptian babies, so I don't think he had the high ground there ;)

I may be an idiot, but personally, I would find it hard to believe in a God who never sanctioned judgement, who never advocated justice at all. That would be truly evil. As far as the Egyptian first-born, was God not patient and slow to anger? Was that the first plague or the last plague? How many years had the Egyptians oppressed another people? How many Israelite children did the Egyptians not kill? Did the punishm…

>As far as the Egyptian first-born, was God not patient and slow to anger?

dude. he fucking killed babies. what a shit head psycho.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#245

Post by ux-app »

_urga wrote: post #242
ux-app wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it was his to take fuck off, that's gross. as humans if we ever create AI we'll (hopefully) do it in the context of a robust ethical framework, and yet all knowing Jehovah couldn't fucking do some due diligence? Jesus fucking Christ, how pathetic of him.

"if we ever create AI we'll (hopefully) do it in the context of a robust ethical framework" There are no grounds (rational or otherwise) for objective morality outside of God. See Hume's "is-ought" dilemma. And if you're into Atheism see also Sam Harris' debate with William Lane Craig.

>There are no grounds (rational or otherwise) for objective morality outside of God.

hopefully we can do better than OT god, otherwise we're in for rough ride.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#246

Post by _urga »

bjourne wrote: post #235
geowwy wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> seems pretty fked up to me :) I'm sure it does. You're a product of the Enlightenment and when you read you read the Bible you interpret it as a product of the Enlightenment. If you want to actually understand what the Bible was trying to communicate you need to remember who the Bible was written by and who it was written for. A Bronze-age Middle-Easterners is going to get a very different message from the Bible th…

What argument is that? I am also a product of the Enlightenment who has read the Bible and I can tell you that the message is markedly different in the Old vs the New Testament. You just have to read about all the rules outlined in Leviticus to understand that. In the OT, someone who breaks the rules mostly end up facing divine retribution. In the NT, they are supposed to be forgiven and brought back to the herd. Who…

Are you suggesting Jesus never saw himself as YHWH?

According to Jesus, "What would Jesus do?" and "What would YHWH do?" are one and the same, see John 14:

"Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”"

"Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#247

Post by _urga »

ux-app wrote: post #245
_urga wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if we ever create AI we'll (hopefully) do it in the context of a robust ethical framework" There are no grounds (rational or otherwise) for objective morality outside of God. See Hume's "is-ought" dilemma. And if you're into Atheism see also Sam Harris' debate with William Lane Craig.

>There are no grounds (rational or otherwise) for objective morality outside of God. hopefully we can do better than OT god, otherwise we're in for rough ride.

"we can do better than OT god"

That's the Devil's oldest lie, and his favorite.

"otherwise we're in for rough ride."

That's what we've been witnessing ever since.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#248

Post by [deleted] »

ux-app wrote: post #244
_urga wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be an idiot, but personally, I would find it hard to believe in a God who never sanctioned judgement, who never advocated justice at all. That would be truly evil. As far as the Egyptian first-born, was God not patient and slow to anger? Was that the first plague or the last plague? How many years had the Egyptians oppressed another people? How many Israelite children did the Egyptians not kill? Did the punishm…

>As far as the Egyptian first-born, was God not patient and slow to anger? dude. he fucking killed babies. what a shit head psycho.

[deleted]

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#249

Post by klibertp »

ux-app wrote: post #234
coldtea wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why try to whitewash the bible? Understanding (and understanding in context) is not whitewashing. There's excellent scholarship in the bible, from religious and non-religious authors. Knee-jerk reactions about "vile psychopaths" are not that. For one, the "old testament Jehovah" was the person who gave life, the universe and everything to the people who died (e.g. in Sodom) anyway. So it was his to take. Psychopath…

> So it was his to take fuck off, that's gross. as humans if we ever create AI we'll (hopefully) do it in the context of a robust ethical framework, and yet all knowing Jehovah couldn't fucking do some due diligence? Jesus fucking Christ, how pathetic of him.

> that's gross

Sure, it is now. But it (probably) wasn't gross back when the bible was written.

The bible is a piece of art/propaganda written to support the sense of tribal unity and to ensure political power stays with the right people. The God, therefore, is just a character - a literary device - from a book written 3k years ago for a very specific target audience. We are not that target audience and we lack the cultural context to decipher the intended meaning - the meaning that the authors had in mind when writing. It's entirely possible that to the authors and their readers the biblical stories were about mercy (or whatever).

And it's not "whitewashing". Nobody denies that OT God is a mass killer. They just claim that - for a fictional character - being a mass killer (or a god for that matter) was very differently perceived 3000 years ago in a middle of a desert.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#250

Post by falsedan »

pygy_ wrote: post #208
falsedan wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The trains, who have children's minds, are unquestionably servile The trains, who have children's minds, are constantly breaking rules, forming petty cliques, tormenting each other, and ultimately getting some comeuppance. How could they be used to teach obedience if they never showed the folly of not following instructions??

I didn't watch it as a kid, and only sampled a few episodes. From what I've seen, while they may break rules, they do so in order to comply with an order coming from the humans (or to fall into their good graces).

That's not the case at all, Thomas is always doing things he shouldn't for fun, like disturbing sleeping trains (Gordon), winding up trains with remarks (also Gordon), passing warning boards in mines, and falling into subsiding mines[0].

Then there's not being nice to trucks, refusing to pull trucks, panicking from a near-collision and running away, ignoring advice from more-experiences engines and losing a head of steam, deliberately causing passengers to get wet, …

The ones where they do as they're asked to are the minority…

I don't recall any instances when an engine was directed to ignore a rule by a driver or the Fat Controller.

0: http://ttte.wikia.com/wiki/Down_the_Mine

Post reply on HN