The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends” • Hacker News Board

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#231

Post by gadders » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 1:23 PM UTC

dmlorenzetti wrote: post #85

paulddraper wrote: post #13

Thomas & Friends is gold. The show is dignified and wholesome. It is always about respect, diligence, and humility. It isn't there for stupid antics and wacky laughs. It doesn't blast color explosions and ADHD-fueled off-the-charts mind-numbing exuburance to capture kids attention. And it's been doing that for decades (pretty much eternity, as far as kids TV goes). Not since Mr. Rogers has there been a better kids TV…

The comparison with Mr. Rogers is instructive. Both shows seem rooted in a minister's desire to encapsulate ideals derived from the Bible. But while Mr. Rogers is New Testament, the Thomas books are Old Testament. Henry, for example, gets punished for the sin of VANITY -- he doesn't stop in the tunnel in order to shirk work, but rather to avoid getting his nice new paint messed up. To see the difference between the s…

I think a better reading would be that the stories encapsulate attitudes in 1940-50's Britain. The social cohesion that was necessary during the war effort, the threat of the cold war etc.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#232

Post by jasonmaydie » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 1:31 PM UTC

My son has a book with a bunch of stories in them, 3 little pigs, Goldilocks etc but I stumbled on one story about "The wolf and seven sheep".

At the end of the story, the mama sheep cuts open the wolf's stomach and fills it with stones and then tosses the wolf into a river. I was stunned.. but that's what stories are, they aren't always nice little things to make your kids live in some fantasy world.

What a bullspit article.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#233

Post by jawilson2 » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 1:38 PM UTC

pygy_ wrote: post #178

Beside specific stories, there are two things in the general set up of Thomas that makes it IMO a toxic show. - The trains, who have children's minds, are unquestionably servile. They obey a pompous and capricious elite (humans) and the narrator goes along for the ride. Obeying is very important for Thomas (who's physically constrained to spend his life on rails). He'll do whatever is needed to stay in his master's g…

I don't think it's racist, more classist. The "new" diesels are threatening to obsolete the older, dirtier, less efficient "steamies", the the steam engines understandably resent them for it. It reminds me more of the dynamic in The Office between the warehouse and office workers than anything to do with race.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#234

Post by ux-app » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 1:39 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #217

ux-app wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you want to actually understand what the Bible was trying to communicate Why try to whitewash the bible? The old testament Jehovah was a vile sociopath. Jesus is a cool guy with a dad that has some screws loose. I grew up in a fundie family, the hoops fundies jump through to justify old testament idiot God are ridiculous and I have no time for that.

> Why try to whitewash the bible? Understanding (and understanding in context) is not whitewashing. There's excellent scholarship in the bible, from religious and non-religious authors. Knee-jerk reactions about "vile psychopaths" are not that. For one, the "old testament Jehovah" was the person who gave life, the universe and everything to the people who died (e.g. in Sodom) anyway. So it was his to take. Psychopath…

> So it was his to take

fuck off, that's gross. as humans if we ever create AI we'll (hopefully) do it in the context of a robust ethical framework, and yet all knowing Jehovah couldn't fucking do some due diligence? Jesus fucking Christ, how pathetic of him.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#235

Post by bjourne » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 1:42 PM UTC

geowwy wrote: post #180

ux-app wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_kil... seems pretty fked up to me :) I don't know anything about rationalwiki.org, it's the first site that showed up when I googled "old testament character punished" Each statement is linked to Biblical verses though, so any objections would be to the spin they put on it rather than disputing whether those passages are actually there. Basically, old testament…

> seems pretty fked up to me :) I'm sure it does. You're a product of the Enlightenment and when you read you read the Bible you interpret it as a product of the Enlightenment. If you want to actually understand what the Bible was trying to communicate you need to remember who the Bible was written by and who it was written for. A Bronze-age Middle-Easterners is going to get a very different message from the Bible th…

What argument is that? I am also a product of the Enlightenment who has read the Bible and I can tell you that the message is markedly different in the Old vs the New Testament. You just have to read about all the rules outlined in Leviticus to understand that. In the OT, someone who breaks the rules mostly end up facing divine retribution. In the NT, they are supposed to be forgiven and brought back to the herd.

Whoever lives his life according to the "What would Jesus do?" doctrine is likely a nice fellow, although a little extremest perhaps. Whoever lives his life according to the "What would YHWH do?" doctrine is a raging psychopath you'd be advised to stay away from.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#236

Post by _urga » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 1:47 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #219

nl wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the overall story is one of Yahweh's love and compassion for his people in a world where everything is falling apart around them Sucks to be Job's family though. I guess God winning his bet was more important than this love and compassion in that case. But in my experience Jews aren't any more violent than Christians I'm pretty sure any religious group can find something in their teachings to justify any possible…

> Sucks to be Job's family though. I guess God winning his bet was more important than this love and compassion in that case. It's not a mere bet, it's a story about life -- one of the more profound in literature, religious or not. It has been widely and often extravagantly praised for its literary qualities, with Alfred, Lord Tennyson calling it "the greatest poem of ancient and modern times" [1] It's not meant as t…

The Bible elsewhere comments on Job as a historical person, see James 5:

"Brothers and sisters, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy."

The book of Job itself suggests a historical context from the very outset, see Job 1:

"In the land of Uz there lived a man..."

It would be a mistake to reduce the book's message to a mere "moral tale" (although it is at least that - and much more).

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#237

Post by ux-app » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 1:54 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #219

nl wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the overall story is one of Yahweh's love and compassion for his people in a world where everything is falling apart around them Sucks to be Job's family though. I guess God winning his bet was more important than this love and compassion in that case. But in my experience Jews aren't any more violent than Christians I'm pretty sure any religious group can find something in their teachings to justify any possible…

> Sucks to be Job's family though. I guess God winning his bet was more important than this love and compassion in that case. It's not a mere bet, it's a story about life -- one of the more profound in literature, religious or not. It has been widely and often extravagantly praised for its literary qualities, with Alfred, Lord Tennyson calling it "the greatest poem of ancient and modern times" [1] It's not meant as t…

this is a classic example of moving the goal posts. according to modern sensibilities Job's tale is one of a sociopathic, malevolent God, therefore it must be simple a "tale" not an actual historical account, otherwise our loving father Jehovah would be worse than Charles fucking Manson.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#238

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 1:59 PM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #53

twiss wrote: post #7

The next episode [1], aired two days later, contains the conclusion of the story, and he gets out of the tunnel. I do agree that 2 days is rather long to leave kids with the conclusion of that first episode though. The final lines are: "Henry doesn't mind the rain now. He knows that the best way to keep his paint nice is not to run into tunnels, but to ask his driver to rub him down when the day's work is over." It m…

Regardless of the story, I find it weird when kids shows split the story across episodes. As an adult I watch series in the right order. As a kid, I didn't know there was any timeline behind the shows. I watched every episode as a separate story, would miss a few, would watch the repeats of what I already saw on different channels, etc. Maybe that doesn't apply to everyone, but I wouldn't expect young kids to connect…

[deleted]

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#239

Post by ux-app » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 2:06 PM UTC

_urga wrote: post #221

nl wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not mainstream Christian opinion. It's fair to say it misses many subtleties of mainstream Christian view, but it is still more true than untrue. The theology of sanctifying grace[1] and the mercy of salvation[2] are both New Testament ideals which are the core of mainstream Christian theology. It's called Marcionism and it's universally condemned by mainstream Christianity. Marcionism is a whole other thing,…

"The theology of sanctifying grace[1] and the mercy of salvation[2] are both New Testament ideals which are the core of mainstream Christian theology." No, "the theology of sanctifying grace and the mercy of salvation" are as old as the hills, and core to both the Old Testament and New Testament. You see hints of God's grace and mercy as early as Genesis 3, often referred to as the Protevangelium, i.e. the first glim…

doesn't change the fact that OT God is a psycho that routinely sanctioned genocide against any fools he disagreed with.

please go ahead and refute any of the following crimes against humanity which this psycho happily documented for all time.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_kil...

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#240

Post by _urga » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 2:11 PM UTC

blurbleblurble wrote: post #179

nl wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not mainstream Christian opinion. It's fair to say it misses many subtleties of mainstream Christian view, but it is still more true than untrue. The theology of sanctifying grace[1] and the mercy of salvation[2] are both New Testament ideals which are the core of mainstream Christian theology. It's called Marcionism and it's universally condemned by mainstream Christianity. Marcionism is a whole other thing,…

Another example in evangelical Christianity is the "new covenant vs old covenant" theology.

The difference between New Covenant and Old Covenant is a matter of a change in place, not a matter of a change in God's character (which stays the same).

The Old Covenant was the law written on tablets of stone, see Exodus 33-34.

The New Covenant is the law written on tablets of human hearts, see Ezekiel 36.

The place changes from "tablets of stone" to "tablets of human hearts".

It's also critical to understand that both covenants were given to those who were ALREADY God's people, saved on the basis of grace, through faith. The Old Covenant was given to those who had already been saved out of Egypt by God's powerful grace. The New Covenant is written on the hearts of those who are saved through faith in Christ's suffering, death and resurrection on their behalf. The Exodus then, rightly understood, is a foreshadowing of the need to be saved from slavery to sin (Jesus' own commentary in John 8).

Salvation in both OT and NT has always been on the basis of faith, see Abraham ("and his faith was counted to him as righteousness" - and this long before the Law was given). Salvation has never been on the basis of Law-keeping since the Law was given to fallen man after the events of Genesis 3 (Romans 5). We are not sinners because we break the Law. We break the Law because we are sinners. The Law makes people conscious of sin, and drives them to the grace of God. Once there, the Law shows people how to be godly, because the Law reflects God's own character.

So the difference is where the Law is written, not the contents of the Law itself. As Jesus said, the Law is to "love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself".

But knowing that, or trying to keep the Law externally will only lead to a knowledge of sin. It's faith in Christ alone which saves. We are not saved BY works, but FOR works and then again only once we are saved (Ephesians 2), and that by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, according to God's words alone, for God's glory alone.