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The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

newyorker.com

221–230 of 279 posts

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#221
post #161
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...the mainstream Christian opinion that the Old Testament is vengeful and the New Testament is merciful... That's not mainstream Christian opinion. It's called Marcionism and it's universally condemned by mainstream Christianity.

That's not mainstream Christian opinion. It's fair to say it misses many subtleties of mainstream Christian view, but it is still more true than untrue. The theology of sanctifying grace[1] and the mercy of salvation[2] are both New Testament ideals which are the core of mainstream Christian theology. It's called Marcionism and it's universally condemned by mainstream Christianity. Marcionism is a whole other thing,…

"The theology of sanctifying grace[1] and the mercy of salvation[2] are both New Testament ideals which are the core of mainstream Christian theology."

No, "the theology of sanctifying grace and the mercy of salvation" are as old as the hills, and core to both the Old Testament and New Testament. You see hints of God's grace and mercy as early as Genesis 3, often referred to as the Protevangelium, i.e. the first glimpse of the Gospel in the Bible.

The themes of God's perfect justice, powerful salvation, abundant grace and mercy run right the way through the Bible.

That's at least how Moses himself understood the God of the Old Testament, see Exodus 33-34:

"Then the Lord came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the Lord. And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.” Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. “Lord,” he said, “if I have found favor in your eyes, then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.”"

For David's same understanding of the God of the Old Testament, see Psalm 23:

"The Lord is my shepherd... surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life"

And for Ezekiel, see Ezekiel 33:

"‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’ “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just. If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so. Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”

Jesus of course is no different in his understanding of the Old Testament with reference to himself and his saving purpose, see Luke 24 and then read Isaiah 53 by way of comparison.

And Jesus' authorized representatives (the apostles) are no different, see 2 Timothy 3:15 where in context Paul is specifically referring to the Old Testament and the ability of the Old Testament to make people "wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus":

"...how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."

Regarding your statement that "Marcionism is a whole other thing":

No, Marcion "rejected the Hebrew Bible and the God of Israel. Marcionists believed that the wrathful Hebrew God was a separate and lower entity than the all-forgiving God of the New Testament."

Contrary to Marcion, Jesus' (the Christ's) own view is that the Bible, from the OT to the NT, has one unified message, which is centered in himself and God's saving purpose for men and women hostile to him, which was accomplished through his sacrifice for sin (his death and resurrection), in their place, all of which was promised for centuries beforehand through the Old Testament (see Isaiah 53 again for an accessible example).

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#222

Thomas & Friends is gold. The show is dignified and wholesome. It is always about respect, diligence, and humility. It isn't there for stupid antics and wacky laughs. It doesn't blast color explosions and ADHD-fueled off-the-charts mind-numbing exuburance to capture kids attention. And it's been doing that for decades (pretty much eternity, as far as kids TV goes). Not since Mr. Rogers has there been a better kids TV…

> Go back to watching Sponge Bob or Family Guy or whatever crap you watch with your kids.

"Go complain about it on the internet."

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#223

Thomas & Friends is gold. The show is dignified and wholesome. It is always about respect, diligence, and humility. It isn't there for stupid antics and wacky laughs. It doesn't blast color explosions and ADHD-fueled off-the-charts mind-numbing exuburance to capture kids attention. And it's been doing that for decades (pretty much eternity, as far as kids TV goes). Not since Mr. Rogers has there been a better kids TV…

SpongeBob is great, but you're absolutely right about Thomas.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This analysis, while novel and interesting to me, is not supported by the bulk of events in the early Old Testament. Fair enough. But my point was that the analysis was the analysis of the New Testament authors. People are free to provide their own critical analysis, but they're disagreeing with Peter, Paul, and the Jesus of the Gospels even. I think people that hold this viewpoint and care to be rigorous about it…

Wow. I've just got to say thank you for some of the most rational responses I've seen on hn in regards to the Bible. It's almost always misrepresented here by people with little knowledge of it or just bad personal experiences. You can almost feel their anger and bitterness. Which I get because I used to be the same way. Man, I really wish hn had a follow button so I could read more of your level headed and insightfu…

Thanks!

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#225
post #4

I am certain that this story was inspired by the reporter reading this recent reddit thread that pointed out the absurdity of this show: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/6zgpig/what_is_t...

It's not exactly the first article to discuss issues with the show though (e.g http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/11597925/Why-d... from 2015).

Ooh, how far back can we go? Guardian, 2012: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jul/04/tyrann...

It has phrases like "crazed authoritarian fantasies" and "a taste for punishment that is both brutal and peremptory."

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the New Testament disagrees with your characterization of the Old Testament. Pretty much the entire New Testament goes on about how the Old Testament is a series of stories about how cycles of rule making and rule breaking do not lead to real justice, peace, or life. In particular, both Romans and Hebrews (though not exclusively those books) cite Old Testament stories to make the case that the Old Testament (…

This analysis, while novel and interesting to me, is not supported by the bulk of events in the early Old Testament. I will name some examples of God personally meting out the death sentence en masse as punishment for sin in various books of the Old Testament. 1. The Great Flood (Genesis), 2. Sodom (Genesis), 3. The Plagues of Egypt (Exodus), 4. The Exile of the Israelites from the Promised Land (Exodus). Redemption,…

Not really informed on the Bible or theology, but I've had the following reading:

Life in the days of the Old Testament (and even afterward for a long time) was incredibly harsh. If your people collectively did the wrong things, you would weaken, and there was a very real chance that your neighbors would genocide or enslave you and take your land. Even today, engaging in many of what the Christians or even the Jews would consider sins can strongly increase the probability of really horrific things happening in your life. Generational childhood obesity from poor parental nutrition knowledge also provides an easy example of how the effects of sin can be felt across generations.

Gluttony - many people today are obese, diabetic, and so on. If you fail to avoid gluttony, you can irreparably destroy your body, cripple yourself, and die young.

Lust - You can waste hours and years of your life masturbating to internet pornography, and destroy your actual life through addiction. You can easily hook up with many girls from Tinder and contract some incurable STD or have an early pregnancy, or ruin your marriage and your life by cheating.

Greed - Do you really not know of any workaholic who is convinced he is "winning" while his net worth is increasing, but has wrecked health, barely knows his children, and has a bad relationship with his wife? And so on

It's not obvious to me that the God of the Old Testament is less cruel than empirical reality. Given that this holds, my question is then the following:

-do you (not you individually, but the people in my argument) want this text to be compatible with reality? Or do you prefer a more simple and pious tale?

-to what extent do people have an issue with the way the world works rather than the Bible?

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#227
While this might be true of the old series, the CGI series is almost anarchic by contrast. The Fat Controller is uniquely accident prone and regularly humiliated by his mother, his wife and his own mistakes. The Steam > Diesel caste system is less entrenched with very many sympathetic diesel engines (Mavis, Den & Dart, Salty) and the gender problems are also less evident with some good female engines (Caitlin, Emily, Mavis).

I don't think the author has seen much of the CGI series or the recent movies.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#228
post #132
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. That characterization of Old Testament vs. New Testament is one of my pet peeves. There's some horrific brutality and violence in the Old Testament. But the overall story is one of Yahweh's love and compassion for his people in a world where everything is falling apart around them. The same theme carries through into the New Testament. If the Old Testament is really as bad as people say then Judaism really ha…

If the Old Testament is really as bad as people say then Judaism really has a problem. But in my experience Jews aren't any more violent than Christians. A group of people is not defined by a 3000-year-old folklore collection. You can’t infer anything about the text this way.

"a ... folklore collection"

Are you implying the Old Testament is not historical? Or not accurate with regards to history?

Or what do you mean by folklore?

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#229
post #178

Beside specific stories, there are two things in the general set up of Thomas that makes it IMO a toxic show. - The trains, who have children's minds, are unquestionably servile. They obey a pompous and capricious elite (humans) and the narrator goes along for the ride. Obeying is very important for Thomas (who's physically constrained to spend his life on rails). He'll do whatever is needed to stay in his master's g…

You say that steam engines not liking diesel engines is an example of racism? I guess that goes to show you can find racism everywhere if you look hard enough.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#230
post #130
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. That characterization of Old Testament vs. New Testament is one of my pet peeves. There's some horrific brutality and violence in the Old Testament. But the overall story is one of Yahweh's love and compassion for his people in a world where everything is falling apart around them. The same theme carries through into the New Testament. If the Old Testament is really as bad as people say then Judaism really ha…

dude, c'mon get real. I've read the old testament. It's brutal. Yahwe loved him some genocide.

Would you say that God had no right to judge the Canaanites after waiting 400 years for them to stop their child sacrifice?

Melvin Tinker provides historical background on the Canaanites and the question of justice vs genocide here:

https://www.amazon.com/Mass-Destruction-Melvin-Tinker/dp/178...

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